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Mahjong Types - Alternative opinions to the Mah-Jongg FAQs
[Updated on Oct 18, 2003: This is a conclusion on the part of the writer on the "follow-up post" issue surrounding the Mah-Jongg FAQs of the mahjong newgroup (rec.games.mahjong). Following discussions between the writer of this message and several regulars of the mahjong newsgroup, the writer posted a message on March 31, 2003 as follows:
QUOTE Although a "new article" was planned at that time but it has never been finalized. As a result of a recent review of the whole situation, a conclusion is made that a follow-up message to the FAQs will not be posted any more, unless a new topic worth a "follow-up" is brought to the attention of the writer. On the other hand, Tom Sloper (who maintains the Mah-Jongg FAQs) has retracted his statement which had caused the "follow-up post", as per his message dated Mar 12, 2003:
QUOTE
That above statement is now formally retracted, to forestall further misuse of it. For the record, my FAQs actually ARE intended to provide factual information for everyone - insofar as is reasonably possible (I'm still trying to be diplomatic, so I am leaving it at that for the time being). Henceforth, given this retraction, it will be a misrepresentation of my intentions to say that my FAQs are "[not] intended to satisfy everyone." Because they ARE. Insofar as is reasonably possible. In reviewing the whole situation, the writer maintains the opinion that International Mahjong ("IMJ") is different from HKOS and opinion of such differences was properly presented. Obviously, this opinion does not meet with Tom's agreement and this opinion is not even mentioned in the FAQ so as to provide readers with the factual information about the issue (as of Oct 18, 2003). Noticing this omission, the writer is not convinced that the FAQs are really intended to satisfy everyone. As a result, it is also concluded that the following message shall remain on this archive in the form it was originally posted on Feb 13, 2003. For details of the event visit the mahjong newsgroup. (Look for "Mah-Jongg FAQs" messages dated between Dec 3, 2002 and Mar 31, 2003 inclusive.)] The Mah-Jongg FAQs maintained by Tom Sloper and frequently posted to the mahjong newsgroups is a great job and is helpful to many - And it is free! However, it isn't intended to satisfy everyone, so for those who wish to express (and for those who wish to be informed of) different ideas than those of the FAQs, a follow up posting may be the only way to go! As of February 13, 2003, it is intended that a "follow-up" posting be added to the FAQs posting on the newsgroups, to express the writer's alternative opinion on the rule type IMJ (short form for INTERNATIONAL MAHJONG) as it compares to FAQ #2 of Tom's list. While it is true that IMJ is very similar to the game play of HKOS, and Tom has his reasons to group it into the HKOS family as per his list. Our opinion is that although IMJ is designed and developed based on the game play of Cantonese Mahjong, it has apparent differences in both the fundamental nature and the game play over other types in the HKOS group, and is therefore, and as a matter of fact, by itself qualified as a new game type. The messages below cover different opinions on the subject matter. To learn more about International Mahjong and IMJ Rules click on the section link "The Rules" at the header of this page.
[A reproduction of a posting in the mahjong newsgroup rec.games.mahjong]
(Initiated message 3 Dec 2002 - Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong / File [maiarchives021]) From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Date: 3 Dec 2002 12:09:14 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 143.183.121.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1038946154 14228 127.0.0.1 (3 Dec 2002 20:09:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 2002 20:09:14 GMT "Tom Sloper" > FAQ02. How to choose a rule set to study, and how to identify which rule set > you (or your friends) are playing. Tom, I noticed that there is no mention of "IMJ" rules in FAQ02, but Alan's Jung Zuang is mentioned. You may want to add IMJ to your list or rules. Also, a very strong recommendation that you add pointers to on-line scoring rules for all the styles. Since I am not able to see the IMJ rules from my computer (browser incompatibility), I was looking for a set of HKOS scoring rules that I can point to a friend, but I did not find it in the FAQ02 area. Thanks. *************************************End of message From: "Tom Sloper" Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.229.188.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1038968923 66.229.188.102 (Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:28:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:28:43 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:28:43 GMT From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) >Tom, I noticed that there is no mention of "IMJ" rules in FAQ02, but >Alan's Jung Zuang is mentioned. You may want to add IMJ to your list >or rules. I regard the IMJ rules as being in the HKOS family (and, accordingly, Cofa is listed as an HKOS author in FAQ 2a - see section #4, "Brief Overview," entry #02). As such, it doesn't need to be "the 22nd different kind of mah-jongg." Unless I see convincing details describing how IMJ differs significantly from HKOS, I don't think a big change is needed in this regard. >Also, a very strong recommendation that you add pointers to on-line >scoring rules for all the styles. ... I did not >find it in the FAQ02 area. Thanks. Not a bad suggestion, but probably more work than I can do with the holidays coming up. Currently the links to rules pages are all in FAQ 4b (search the page for keywords "HKOS" or "Hong Kong"). We'll see. Tom *************************************End of message From: cofatsui@hotmail.com (Cofa Tsui) Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Date: 9 Dec 2002 21:16:03 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039497363 15507 127.0.0.1 (10 Dec 2002 05:16:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2002 05:16:03 GMT "Tom Sloper" > From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) > > > > >Tom, I noticed that there is no mention of "IMJ" rules in FAQ02, but > >Alan's Jung Zuang is mentioned. You may want to add IMJ to your list > >or rules. > > > > I regard the IMJ rules as being in the HKOS family (and, accordingly, Cofa > is listed as an HKOS author in FAQ 2a - see section #4, "Brief Overview," > entry #02). As such, it doesn't need to be "the 22nd different kind of > mah-jongg." Unless I see convincing details describing how IMJ differs > significantly from HKOS, I don't think a big change is needed in this > regard. Thanks Dee for bringing up this question. For those who care to know the following are the main differences between IMJ and HKOS: Differences in the fundamental nature: HKOS is a property of the public domain. It's evolution and developments are uncontrolled or otherwise not managed by anyone. There is no definitive rule set for HKOS and HKOS rules and terminology are subject to deviations from playgroup to playgroup. IMJ (short form for INTERNATIONAL MAHJONG) is a style created and developed based on the game play of Cantonese Mahjong (also known as HKOS) and the style can be absolutely identified by its exclusive trademarks. IMJ comes with a definitive, comprehensive rule set and the terminology of the game is standardized. Differences in the game play: IMJ applies "the Chucker pays for all" system, while in HKOS all players pay to the winner in each Game. Many "grey areas of play" found in HKOS are precisely stipulated in IMJ. These include (but not limiting) the following found in IMJ: - The Heaven may be won by players other than the Jonga (Art. 25.1). - It is possible for a player to win even if he/she has too many or too few of Pies in hand (Art. 25.4 and Art. 25.6). - Precise ruling about a "Charged Hand" (Art. 34.7). More and any updated information related to IMJ, including its rule set and its future developments can be found in the International Mahjong Official Website (see below). Cofa Tsui www.iMahjong.com View terminology and full set of International Mahjong Rules online. INTERNATIONAL MAHJONG, a name worth investing in. *************************************End of message From: "Tom Sloper" Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Lines: 69 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.130.250.72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1039629232 24.130.250.72 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:53:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:53:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:53:52 GMT From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) >>>Tom, I noticed that there is no mention of "IMJ" rules in FAQ02, but >>>Alan's Jung Zuang is mentioned. You may want to add IMJ to your list >>>or rules. To which I had replied: >> I regard the IMJ rules as being in the HKOS family (and, accordingly, Cofa >> is listed as an HKOS author in FAQ 2a - see section #4, "Brief Overview," >> entry #02). As such, it doesn't need to be "the 22nd different kind of >> mah-jongg." Unless I see convincing details describing how IMJ differs >> significantly from HKOS, I don't think a big change is needed in this >> regard. From: cofatsui@hotmail.com (Cofa Tsui) >Differences in the game play: > >IMJ applies "the Chucker pays for all" system, while in HKOS all >players pay to the winner in each Game. > >Many "grey areas of play" [i.e. optional rules] found in HKOS are precisely stipulated in IMJ. >- The Heaven may be won by players other than the Jonga (Art. 25.1). >- It is possible for a player to win even if he/she has too many or >too few of Pies in hand (Art. 25.4 and Art. 25.6). >- Precise ruling about a "Charged Hand" (Art. 34.7). I find these to be fairly minor variations on HKOS. We see bigger variations in CC going back as far as the 1920s. The "Cleared Hand," "Mixed Hand," and "One Double" (1 fan minimum) games are all minor variations on CC - and some folks allow "Payment to winner only," some do or don't use the flowers, some allow 7 Pairs hands, some score 10 for MJ rather than 20, etc. I don't see a need to call those all separate games, for the purpose of the list of all known types of mah-jongg. And I don't see a need to call minor variations on HKOS completely separate games for that list either. My list isn't intended to satisfy everyone (I would be constantly torn between opposing views if I tried to satisfy everyone, so I do not regard that as a useful ideal). It was originally intended mainly to help novices who may think there are only 1 or 2 kinds of mah-jongg, to show them the flavor varieties available in the whole mah-jongg cornucopia. For the rest of us who are more knowledgeable, it's a tool to help us organize our thoughts on all those flavor varieties. My list could be regarded as a list of "families" rather than as a definitive list of each and every variant (perhaps that would help in this regard). Cheers to all, Tom -- Tom Sloper - Game Designer, Producer, Consultant, Author, Speaker. Sloperama Productions. Services for game developers and publishers; "Making Games Fun, And Getting Them Done." http://www.sloperama.com/business.html. 20+ web pages of helpful free information and bulletin boards for game industry aspirants; a new article every month. http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html. The Maj Exchange. 100+ web pages of free information and bulletin boards about the games of mah-jongg and hanafuda. http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq.html Los Angeles, CA 90066, USA. Tel: (310) 915-9945, Fax: (310) 745-0925, Cell: (310) DIG-SURF tomster@sloperama.com *************************************End of message From: thierry.depaulis@freesbee.fr (Thierry Depaulis) Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Date: 12 Dec 2002 11:54:11 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5878e597.0212121154.3b42b1cf@posting.google.com> References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.19.9.150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039722851 22074 127.0.0.1 (12 Dec 2002 19:54:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2002 19:54:11 GMT Tom wrote: >My list isn't intended to satisfy everyone (I would be constantly torn >between opposing views if I tried to satisfy everyone, so I do not regard >that as a useful ideal). It was originally intended mainly to help novices >who may think there are only 1 or 2 kinds of mah-jongg, to show them the >flavor varieties available in the whole mah-jongg cornucopia. For the rest >of us who are more knowledgeable, it's a tool to help us organize our >thoughts on all those flavor varieties. Yes, Tom. It's an excellent basis for further research. It gave a serious impetus for good discussion. And this discussion group is by far one of the best I have met. Your whole site is a mine of information, and it helps us greatly. Thank you. Thierry *************************************End of message X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.76.165.196 Reply-To: "Cofa Tsui" From: "Cofa Tsui" Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:57:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1039755463 24.69.255.232 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:57:43 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:57:43 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet "Thierry Depaulis" news:5878e597.0212121154.3b42b1cf@posting.google.com... > Tom wrote: > > >My list isn't intended to satisfy everyone (I would be constantly torn > >between opposing views if I tried to satisfy everyone, so I do not regard > >that as a useful ideal). It was originally intended mainly to help novices > >who may think there are only 1 or 2 kinds of mah-jongg, to show them the > >flavor varieties available in the whole mah-jongg cornucopia. For the rest > >of us who are more knowledgeable, it's a tool to help us organize our > >thoughts on all those flavor varieties. > > Yes, Tom. It's an excellent basis for further research. > It gave a serious impetus for good discussion. > And this discussion group is by far one of the best I have met. > Your whole site is a mine of information, and it helps us greatly. > Thank you. Tom surely has his right to maintain his FAQ the way he likes. After all this is a great job and is helpful to many - And it is free! For those who wish to express different ideas than those of the FAQ, a follow up posting may be the only way to go! Cheers! Cofa Tsui www.iMahjong.com View terminology and full set of International Mahjong Rules online. INTERNATIONAL MAHJONG, a name worth investing in. *************************************End of message From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Date: 16 Dec 2002 09:24:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 143.183.121.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1040059480 25445 127.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2002 17:24:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2002 17:24:40 GMT "Cofa Tsui" > "Thierry Depaulis" > news:5878e597.0212121154.3b42b1cf@posting.google.com... > > Tom wrote: > > > > >My list isn't intended to satisfy everyone > > Yes, Tom. It's an excellent basis for further research. > Tom surely has his right to maintain his FAQ the way he likes. After all > this is a great job and is helpful to many - And it is free! > > For those who wish to express different ideas than those of the FAQ, a > follow up posting may be the only way to go! OK then, let me post a compromise proposal. If Tom had taken up my other proposal to add links to sites that have rules for the various "families" of Mahjong, then a good compromise would be to add a link to the IMJ rules under the HKOS family (in addition to possibly other links to other sites that contain HKOS rules). That way, it clearly shows that Tom thinks IMJ belongs to the HKOS family, and at the same time, provide a link to the rules for those who wanted to do further research. As things stand now, Tom's FAQ only provided links to a very select few rule families (I only remember a link to Alan's rules, but there may be others) in the FAQ04 and one has to look at the other FAQ to find the links and try to figure out how they relate to the rule families. *************************************End of message From: "Tom Sloper" Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong,fj.rec.games.mahjong References: <7rMG9.204871$NH2.13849@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg FAQs Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.130.250.72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040070105 24.130.250.72 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:21:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:21:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:21:45 GMT From: d_lau@my-deja.com (Dee) >OK then, let me post a compromise proposal. ... >As things stand now, Tom's FAQ only provided links to a >very select few rule families (I only remember a link to Alan's rules, >but there may be others) There sure are. >in the FAQ04 and one has to look at the other >FAQ to find the links and try to figure out how they relate to the >rule families. No compromising necessary. It's an excellent suggestion to modify FAQ 4b to make it easier for readers to find rules for any particular variant (and to help readers of FAQ 2 as well). I'll do it in the most work-saving method I can, but it'll still be a fairly extensive job. I'll get to it as soon as I'm out from under the holiday crunch and some other professional obligations. Probably later this week. Cheers, Tom -- Tom Sloper - Game Designer, Producer, Consultant, Author, Speaker. Sloperama Productions. Services for game developers and publishers; "Making Games Fun, And Getting Them Done." http://www.sloperama.com/business.html. 20+ web pages of helpful free information and bulletin boards for game industry aspirants; a new article every month. http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html. The Maj Exchange. 100+ web pages of free information and bulletin boards about the games of mah-jongg and hanafuda. http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq.html Los Angeles, CA 90066, USA. Tel: (310) 915-9945, Fax: (310) 745-0925, Cell: (310) DIG-SURF tomster@sloperama.com *************************************End of message |
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