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Last Pai - Various questions about last pai
Rules regarding how the last pai is handled may not be the same in different variants of mahjong. This page records some older messages of the mahjong newsgroup stored at Google. The discussions addressed various issues, including:
[Below is a reproduction of messages posted in the mahjong newsgroup (rec.games.mahjong) - 1 From: Patrick Ho - view profile Date: Sun, Oct 11 1998 12:00 am Email: Patrick Ho <p...@email.sjsu.edu> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Hi group. Me again. Whenever my group plays, we play till where we draw to the very last tile, with the exception of having the option of not drawing the very last tile. One would choose to do this if their hand was not ready anyway and don't want to risk the chance of tossing out a tile for someone to win with. So, if I pick the second to last tile and it happens to be a flower, I am supposed to pick a replacement tile from the end, now do I have to toss that tile out? I guess another possibility would have been to not pick the replacement tile, too. -- Sonya Kintana Ibukki Sakura Lin Xiaoyu Chun Li Lei-fang Sophitia Rose ---------------------------------------------------Devlot Nina --Patrick Ho Kasumi Taki http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/2752 Ellis Anna ---------------------------------------------------Michelle Elena Felicia Orchid Morrigan Mileena Sindel Seung Mina Hsien-ko Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 2 From: J. R. Fitch - view profile Date: Sun, Oct 11 1998 12:00 am Email: "J. R. Fitch" <jrfi...@ninedragons.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Patrick, > Hi group. Me again. Whenever my group plays, we play till where we draw > to the very last tile, with the exception of having the option of not > drawing the very last tile. One would choose to do this if their hand > was not ready anyway and don't want to risk the chance of tossing out a > tile for someone to win with. So, if I pick the second to last tile and > it happens to be a flower, I am supposed to pick a replacement tile from > the end, now do I have to toss that tile out? I guess another > possibility would have been to not pick the replacement tile, too. Can any comment regarding Hong Kong style: My sources confirm your statement - the last player is not obligated to pick up the final tile; if they do, however, they must then discard it. On the other hand, if your are second to last, and your tile turns out to be a Flower, you are definitely obligated to pick up that last tile and to discard it. The explanation seems to be that you were not originally fated to be last, so you do not own the privilege. -- J. R. Fitch Nine Dragons Software 351 Ulloa Street San Francisco, California 94127 415.664.3474 v. 415.564.3161 f. www.ninedragons.com jrfi...@ninedragons.com Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 3 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 12 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author J.R. Fitch wrote, >My sources confirm your statement - the last player is not >obligated to pick up the final tile; if they do, however, >they must then discard it. *** Whoa Nellie! I guess I wouldn't want it that bad... usually. Could get interesting, though, if I was one away from a win, and wanted to take the chance. Get the wrong tile, though, and somebody else could go out on it! Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 4 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 12 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author I believe what JR and Patrick both mean is that the player must discard 'a' tile, not the last one he/she draws. Unless you've declared 'reach' or something in that fashion where you must discard the drawn tile, you can always keep that last tile and throw out a 'safer' tile instead. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - ACTSEARCH wrote: > J.R. Fitch wrote, > >My sources confirm your statement - the last player is not > >obligated to pick up the final tile; if they do, however, > >they must then discard it. > *** Whoa Nellie! I guess I wouldn't want it that bad... usually. Could get > interesting, though, if I was one away from a win, and wanted to take the > chance. Get the wrong tile, though, and somebody else could go out on it! Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 5 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 12 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Patrick, I assume you do have at least 16 'dead' tiles, right? In any case, whenever you draw a tile, you must discard a tile, with no exceptions. You also must pick up the replacement tile. If you do play with at least 16 'dead' tiles, the flower replacement would turn your 'next to last' tile into the last tile, since that last tile becomes part of the 16 'dead' tiles. You'll still have to discard a tile to finish the game, though, so pick wisely. - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Patrick Ho wrote: > Hi group. Me again. Whenever my group plays, we play till where we draw > to the very last tile, with the exception of having the option of not > drawing the very last tile. One would choose to do this if their hand > was not ready anyway and don't want to risk the chance of tossing out a > tile for someone to win with. So, if I pick the second to last tile and > it happens to be a flower, I am supposed to pick a replacement tile from > the end, now do I have to toss that tile out? I guess another > possibility would have been to not pick the replacement tile, too. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 6 From: Klaus Ole Kristiansen - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 13 1998 12:00 am Email: k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: >Patrick, >I assume you do have at least 16 'dead' tiles, right? In any case, whenever >you draw a tile, you must discard a tile, with no exceptions. You also must >pick up the replacement tile. If you do play with at least 16 'dead' tiles, >the flower replacement would turn your 'next to last' tile into the last tile, >since that last tile becomes part of the 16 'dead' tiles. You'll still have >to discard a tile to finish the game, though, so pick wisely. How we play (Chinese Classical): if the last tile in the live wall is a bonus, the hand ends immediately. I don't see what else you could do, since there is no replacement tile available. The same thing happens if you make a kong with the last tile in the live wall, or claim a discard for kong after the live wall is exhausted, and the replacement is a bonus. Klaus O K Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 7 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 13 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 13 Oct 1998 10:31:02 +0200, k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) wrote: >Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: >>Patrick, >>I assume you do have at least 16 'dead' tiles, right? In any case, whenever >>you draw a tile, you must discard a tile, with no exceptions. You also must >>pick up the replacement tile. If you do play with at least 16 'dead' tiles, >>the flower replacement would turn your 'next to last' tile into the last tile, >>since that last tile becomes part of the 16 'dead' tiles. You'll still have >>to discard a tile to finish the game, though, so pick wisely. >How we play (Chinese Classical): if the last tile in the live wall is a bonus, >the hand ends immediately. I don't see what else you could do, since there >is no replacement tile available. The same thing happens if you make a kong >with the last tile in the live wall, or claim a discard for kong after the >live wall is exhausted, and the replacement is a bonus. Can one kong the last tile? I think one cannot kong because there are no (playable) tiles in the wall left for a replacement. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 8 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 13 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <36235fbe.17951...@news.netvigator.com>, t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote: > On 13 Oct 1998 10:31:02 +0200, k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) > wrote: > >Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: > >[snipped] > >How we play (Chinese Classical): if the last tile in the live wall is a bonus, > >the hand ends immediately. I don't see what else you could do, since there > >is no replacement tile available. The same thing happens if you make a kong > >with the last tile in the live wall, or claim a discard for kong after the > >live wall is exhausted, and the replacement is a bonus. > Can one kong the last tile? I think one cannot kong because there are > no (playable) tiles in the wall left for a replacement. (Can one kong the last tile?) I remember one game (I always remember THIS particular game!) which happened long time before I wrote the first version of the rule book of IMJ Rules: "There was only one tile remaining on the wall - We must draw to the last tile and the one who draws it must discard one tile (any tile). I (Cofa) was calling for a Red Dragon to complete the winning hand of the Thirteen Godess. It was Player A's turn to draw. (Believe me, I still remember his name!) He drew the last tile from the wall. After thinking for *quite* a while what tile he should discard to achieve a "safe landing", he, while smiling at me (he knew my hand was going to be a high score hand), made a set of concealed kong of 4 Red Dragon --- hoping this would end the game. W O W ! That's exactly made for me! Need not to say: I won on that Red Dragon with a lot of features to add up my scores: The Thirteen Godess; Robbing the Kong; Win on the last exposed-Kong. I received FULL scores from EACH player." I therefore believe, if you apply the "draw to the last tile" rule, you may either discard the last tile (any tile from your hand), or kong it. In this case, kong has the same effect as discard - other players can claim it. But kong is safer than discard, as NOT EVERYONE can claim a kong - However, theory does not necessarily apply to ALL cases! -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-13 Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html (8a13a.) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 9 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 14 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know what it is! Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Cofa Tsui wrote: > It was Player A's turn to draw. (Believe me, I still remember his name!) He > drew the last tile from the wall. After thinking for *quite* a while what > tile he should discard to achieve a "safe landing", he, while smiling at me > (he knew my hand was going to be a high score hand), made a set of concealed > kong of 4 Red Dragon --- hoping this would end the game. > W O W ! That's exactly made for me! Need not to say: I won on that Red Dragon > with a lot of features to add up my scores: The Thirteen Godess; Robbing the > Kong; Win on the last exposed-Kong. I received FULL scores from EACH player." Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 10 From: Wei-Hwa Huang - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 14 1998 12:00 am Email: whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know >Steve In some versions of Mahjong, concealed kongs must be shown to the other players. >Cofa Tsui wrote: >> It was Player A's turn to draw. (Believe me, I still remember his name!) He >> drew the last tile from the wall. After thinking for *quite* a while what >> tile he should discard to achieve a "safe landing", he, while smiling at me >> (he knew my hand was going to be a high score hand), made a set of concealed >> kong of 4 Red Dragon --- hoping this would end the game. >> W O W ! That's exactly made for me! Need not to say: I won on that Red Dragon >> with a lot of features to add up my scores: The Thirteen Godess; Robbing the >> Kong; Win on the last exposed-Kong. I received FULL scores from EACH player." -- Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity." Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 11 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 14 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: > >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know > >Steve > In some versions of Mahjong, concealed kongs must be shown to the other > players. Thanks, Wei-Hwa, I did not know that. We normally check concealed kong after the hand is complete, just to make sure it was a true kong, and not four different winds:-). I guess some people never felt the pain of waiting for a single tile that was conceal kong'ed by another player. Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 12 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <36252267.75E7A...@email.sps.mot.com>, Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: > Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: > > >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know > > >Steve > > In some versions of Mahjong, concealed kongs must be shown to the other > > players. > Thanks, Wei-Hwa, I did not know that. We normally check concealed kong after > the hand is complete, just to make sure it was a true kong, and not four > different winds:-). I guess some people never felt the pain of waiting for a > single tile that was conceal kong'ed by another player. > Cheers, > Steve Well Steve, the pain might just be caused NOT ONLY from the concealed kong, if you play with "dead tiles". The tile you are looking for may be in the "dead tiles", even there is no Kong at all. Cheers! -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-14 Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 13 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Sun, Oct 18 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 05:21:32 GMT, Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> wrote: >> I guess some people never felt the pain of waiting for a >> single tile that was conceal kong'ed by another player. >> Cheers, >> Steve >Well Steve, the pain might just be caused NOT ONLY from the concealed kong, if >you play with "dead tiles". The tile you are looking for may be in the "dead >tiles", even there is no Kong at all. There are many ways where 3 players can be holding all 4 copies of a tile in useful positions in their hands, and none of them is going to give them up. A concealed triplet is easily 3 tiles gone. (However, this becomes less likely under stringent minimum Faan limits.) Thus, I don't think the cases where the tiles one is calling for are conceal-kong'ed or in the dead tiles should be singled out. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 14 From: steveylin - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: stevey...@my-dejanews.com Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Cofa Tsui wrote: > >Well Steve, the pain might just be caused NOT ONLY from the concealed kong, if > >you play with "dead tiles". The tile you are looking for may be in the "dead > >tiles", even there is no Kong at all. Alan Kwan wrote: > There are many ways where 3 players can be holding all 4 copies of a > tile in useful positions in their hands, and none of them is going to > give them up. A concealed triplet is easily 3 tiles gone. (However, > this becomes less likely under stringent minimum Faan limits.) > Thus, I don't think the cases where the tiles one is calling for are > conceal-kong'ed or in the dead tiles should be singled out. But that's my point, in all these situations the tiles are concealed from other players, so why should concealed kong be revealed to other players? It would seem one would be better off keeping the concealed triplet than to reveal the kong tiles to everyone. Cheers, Steve -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 15 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin wrote, But that's my point, in all these [other] situations the tiles are concealed from other players, so why should concealed kong be revealed to other players? *** Because that is the rule. If you can get your table to agree to use a different rule, go ahead. Why debate rules? You can just change them -- provided that you can get your friends to agree. Steve continued, It would seem one would be better off keeping the concealed triplet than to reveal the kong tiles to everyone. *** OK, then if you're playing in a game where the rule (presumably a rule that you could not get your friends to change) has a perceived detriment like this, you have the choice of playing accordingly. If you feel that a face-up "concealed" kong is detrimental to you, then stick with pongs and keep them hidden (don't make any "concealed" kongs). You do have a lot of freedom, even when you feel hampered by the rules. I repeat -- What's the point of arguing against the rules? Just change them (if you can get your friends to agree). If you can't change the rules, and the rule bothers you so much, then find another group of players -- but then you'll have to work out a set of rules with those players too. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 16 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 27 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Tom Sloper wrote: > I repeat -- What's the point of arguing against the rules? Just change them > (if you can get your friends to agree). If you can't change the rules, and the > rule bothers you so much, then find another group of players -- but then you'll > have to work out a set of rules with those players too. My apologies, but the concept of exposing concealed kong,robbing a concealed kong, and robbing an existing kong is totally alien to me. So is drawing to the last tile and being able to not discard the last tile. I have played with many different mahjong groups (mostly Taiwanese mahjong) and no one ever brought up these possibilities. I had no idea that other styles allow these things. Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 17 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:26:08 -0600, Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: >Tom Sloper wrote: >> I repeat -- What's the point of arguing against the rules? Just change them >> (if you can get your friends to agree). If you can't change the rules, and the >> rule bothers you so much, then find another group of players -- but then you'll >> have to work out a set of rules with those players too. >My apologies, but the concept of exposing concealed kong,robbing a concealed >kong, and robbing an existing kong is totally alien to me. No problem. Exposing a concealed kong is the traditional rule, before Taiwanese mahjong. Robbing a concealed kong (by Thirteen Orphans) is an exception rule, a house rule but very common in HK Old Style. I am not sure of its origins. Robbing an existing kong is one of those weird house rules made up by (probably) beginners. It probably rises out of the difficulty of properly conveying or understanding the standard rule (which is itself an exception rule). > So is drawing to >the last tile This comes about because of stringent minimum faan limits (SMFL), common among HKOS players. Taiwanese players usually play to go out as fast as possible and don't use (S)MFL, so the concept is naturally alien to them. > and being able to not discard the last tile. This is a traditional rule which has been forgotten to some degree. The alternate ruling is commonly adopted because it looks more 'logical'. >I have played with >many different mahjong groups (mostly Taiwanese mahjong) and no one ever >brought up these possibilities. I had no idea that other styles allow these things. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 18 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Alan Kwan wrote: > > and being able to not discard the last tile. > This is a traditional rule which has been forgotten to some degree. > The alternate ruling is commonly adopted because it looks more > 'logical'. I thought the traditional rule is to be able to decline drawing the last tile, but if the last tile is drawn, a tile must be discarded. Is this not true? I can see an alternate ruling of always drawing and discarding the last tile as a simplification of rules, but being able to draw and not discard the last tile seems to give the last player an unfair advantage. As for the exposing of concealed kong, is there a habit of checking the concealed pieces after each hand? This must be done in Taiwanese style since all 4 tiles are concealed. Are the two hidden tiles checked in other styles? Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 19 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin wrote: I thought the traditional rule is to be able to decline drawing the last tile, but if the last tile is drawn, a tile must be discarded. Is this not true? *** It is /a/ rule used in some form of MJ, I suppose. But it is not /the traditional/ rule according to the books I've read (I could not find this rule mentioned in any of the books that I have). Steve wrote: I can see an alternate ruling of always drawing and discarding the last tile as a simplification of rules, but being able to draw and not discard the last tile seems to give the last player an unfair advantage. *** Okay then, if you ever play with some folks who like this rule, you will have to try to convince them not to use the rule while you are playing with them. I don't think you can convince them not to use the rule when you are not there, since they like the rule. Steve wrote: As for the exposing of concealed kong, is there a habit of checking the concealed pieces after each hand? This must be done in Taiwanese style since all 4 tiles are concealed. Are the two hidden tiles checked in other styles? *** The two tiles are displayed to the players (so everybody is satisfied that it really is a kong) /before/ being turned face-down. Tom Sloper Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 20 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 29 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 28 Oct 1998 19:13:07 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote: >Steve Lin wrote: >I thought the traditional rule is to be able to decline drawing the last tile, >but if the last tile is drawn, a tile must be discarded. Is this not true? >*** It is /a/ rule used in some form of MJ, I suppose. But it is not /the >traditional/ rule according to the books I've read (I could not find this rule >mentioned in any of the books that I have). Tom, you have the book; it's just that you can't read the language. ^_^ >Steve wrote: >I can see an alternate ruling of always drawing and discarding the last tile as >a simplification of rules, but being able to draw and not discard the last >tile seems to give the last player an unfair advantage. Yes, that's why I mention that requiring the last player to discard is the 'logical' ruling often adopted. In practice, it doesn't make too big a difference, since the last player will usually just discard something very safe. Omitting the last discard saves some time. It also avoids some rules questions such as "is one allowed to claim the last discard for something other than going out?" >*** Okay then, if you ever play with some folks who like this rule, you will >have to try to convince them not to use the rule while you are playing with >them. I don't think you can convince them not to use the rule when you are not >there, since they like the rule. >Steve wrote: >As for the exposing of concealed kong, is there a habit of checking the >concealed pieces after each hand? This must be done in Taiwanese style since >all 4 tiles are concealed. In Taiwanese, a player who has made a concealed kong is obligated to reveal the tiles for inspection at the end of the hand. If he forgets, it is subject to penalty. > Are the two hidden tiles checked in other styles? >*** The two tiles are displayed to the players (so everybody is satisfied that >it really is a kong) /before/ being turned face-down. >Tom Sloper "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 21 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 29 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author >Steve Lin wrote: >I thought the traditional rule is to be able to decline drawing the last tile, >but if the last tile is drawn, a tile must be discarded. Is this not true? I had responded: > It is /a/ rule used in some form of MJ, I suppose. But it is not /the >traditional/ rule according to the books I've read (I could not find this rule >mentioned in any of the books that I have). Alan Kwan wrote: Tom, you have the book; it's just that you can't read the language. ^_^ *** Heh heh. There I go again! Sorry about that. So Mr. Gaan's book (which I can't read) says that the player's ability to decline discarding after drawing the final tile /is/ "the traditional rule?" Interesting. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 22 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 30 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author ACTSEARCH wrote: > *** Heh heh. There I go again! Sorry about that. So Mr. Gaan's book (which I > can't read) says that the player's ability to decline discarding after drawing > the final tile /is/ "the traditional rule?" Interesting. I'm still confused about the last tile. Is the traditional rule: A)able to decline drawing the last tile, but if drawn, must discard a tile B)must draw the last tile and discard a tile C)must draw the last tile, but do not need to discard a tile I'm familiar with A, which one does the other styles recognize? I never meant to criticize any other styles, but I wanted to know if each variations are accepted rules in other styles or just "house" rules. I now understand how a minimum fan can contribute to a "draw to the last tile" rule. I also see that 16 kongs is a possibility in other styles, and concealed kongs are not really concealed in other styles. Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 23 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 30 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin asked, > I'm still confused about the last tile. Is the traditional rule: A)able to decline drawing the last tile, but if drawn, must discard a tile B)must draw the last tile and discard a tile C)must draw the last tile, but do not need to discard a tile *** Steve, when you say "the traditional rule," which game are you asking about, or are you trying to determine the /original/ rule from when the game was originally created? >I'm familiar with A, which one does the other styles recognize? *** B is the rule in Classical Chinese (I'm not talking about Mr. Gaan's book because I can't read it), Japanese, Western, NMJL, and Wright-Patterson. C is a common table rule (house rule) in Hong Kong (it is not mentioned in Perlmen & Chan or Constantino). > I never meant to criticize any other styles, but I wanted to know if each variations are accepted rules in other styles or just "house" rules. *** Yes, it is interesting, isn't it? Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 24 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author >I wrote: >> I repeat -- What's the point of arguing against the rules? Just change them >> (if you can get your friends to agree). If you can't change the rules, and the >> rule bothers you so much, then find another group of players -- but then you'll >> have to work out a set of rules with those players too. Steve Lin replied: >My apologies, but the concept of exposing concealed kong,robbing a concealed >kong, and robbing an existing kong is totally alien to me. Alan Kwan wrote: No problem. *** Absolutely. I just don't see the point of making arguments against particular rules in this forum (I /can/ see the benefit of making arguments, with the players, against rules being used at your table) -- in this case, I see now, the rule in question was a rule that your game doesn't use. Which (to me) is even more pointless an argument! What difference does it make /why/ the rule exists in that other game (which you do not play)? Maybe a complete understanding of the game and its origins (how it branched out from the main Mah-Jongg trunk, and demographic info about the players of that style) might enlighten you as to why the rule exists, or maybe it wouldn't. Tom Sloper Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 25 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 29 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 28 Oct 1998 19:12:07 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - >>I wrote: >>> I repeat -- What's the point of arguing against the rules? Just change them >>> (if you can get your friends to agree). If you can't change the rules, and >the >>> rule bothers you so much, then find another group of players -- but then >you'll >>> have to work out a set of rules with those players too. >Steve Lin replied: >>My apologies, but the concept of exposing concealed kong,robbing a concealed >>kong, and robbing an existing kong is totally alien to me. >Alan Kwan wrote: >No problem. >*** Absolutely. I just don't see the point of making arguments against >particular rules in this forum (I /can/ see the benefit of making arguments, >with the players, against rules being used at your table) I see it the other way, Tom. This is a discussion forum for all kinds of relevent discussions. OTOH, arguing about rules at the table may become counter-productive to the smooth commencement and progress of the game. The players don't 'argue' rules at the table; they 'agree' to a set of rules before play begins. > -- in this case, I >see now, the rule in question was a rule that your game doesn't use. Which (to >me) is even more pointless an argument! What difference does it make /why/ the >rule exists in that other game (which you do not play)? ... which one is not playing for the moment. Tom, are you yourself not playing some form of mahjong you do not know about a year or two ago? >Maybe a complete >understanding of the game and its origins (how it branched out from the main >Mah-Jongg trunk, and demographic info about the players of that style) might >enlighten you as to why the rule exists, or maybe it wouldn't. It doesn't hurt to try. Usenet usage is pretty cheap. ^_^ "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 26 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 29 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Alan Kwan wrote, I see it the other way, Tom. This is a discussion forum for all kinds of relevent discussions. *** I agree, Alan, that this is a form for all kinds of relevant Mah-Jongg discussions. It is the matter of relevancy that I was questioning. Here's another way of looking at it -- this scenario has been played out several times here, with different people's names able to be plugged into the pseudonyms "Poster A" and "Poster B." 1- Poster A has for years been playing MJ style 1. He may or may not be aware of the existence of MJ style 2 (or the details of how it is played). 2- Poster B has for years been playing MJ style 2. Poster B is blithely unaware of the existence of MJ style 1 (else, if aware of its existence, does not know how it is played). 3- Poster A, in discussing a relevant issue, mentions that MJ style 1 rules something differently from MJ style 2. 4- Poster B says, "Why do you rule it that way? That's a bad (dumb, nonsensical) way to rule it, and here's why." Poster B does not have a full understanding of MJ style 1, and his reasoning as to why the rule is bad is based on the way MJ style 2 is played. 5- Poster A and Poster B go back and forth for quite a while as Poster A helps Poster B understand MJ style 1 (it may have the appearance of an argument or of a debate). 6- In the end Poster B usually comes to realize that MJ style 1 is quite different from MJ style 2, and that in fact the rule just might make sense for MJ style 1 after all. Certainly, Poster B does not convince Poster A to change the way Poster A plays MJ, and after the extensive back-and-forth discussion, now realizes this. 7. The rules of MJ style 1 and of MJ style 2 remain unchanged (neither poster has the ability to alter the rules). I was just trying to get us past the lengthy back-and-forth (step 5) and more quickly get us to the place where Poster B sees the light (step 6). I do not desire to quash discussion, but the "debate" that takes place at step 5 can be less than stimulating reading sometimes. I should probably not have stepped in at all, and I'll think twice before acting the same way again in a similar circumstance. Alan wrote: OTOH, arguing about rules at the table may become counter-productive to the smooth commencement and progress of the game. The players don't 'argue' rules at the table; they 'agree' to a set of rules before play begins. *** Yes, the word "argue" is connotative of discord. I don't advocate "arguing" (fighting verbally) about the rules at all. My point was that "arguments" (in its sense as a debating term) or "discussion points" about rule changes should be made with one's regular playing group (that that would make more sense than making such arguments with someone who plays an entirely different style of MJ). I agree that such "arguments" should be made away from the table (either before or after a game, assuming that a game will subsequently be played according to the agreed-upon rules). I had written: > -- in this case, I >see now, the rule in question was a rule that your game doesn't use. Which (to >me) is even more pointless an argument! What difference does it make /why/ the >rule exists in that other game (which you do not play)? Alan wrote: ... which one is not playing for the moment. Tom, are you yourself not playing some form of mahjong you do not know about a year or two ago? *** Yes, but sorry, I don't get the point of the question. I never question the reason for the existence of the rules I am learning. As I change from one MJ style to another, I adapt to the rules of the style currently being played. What would be the point of questioning the reason for existence of the rules? If I don't like them, I don't have to play the game at all. If I wanted to make up my own, then I'd have to try to convince others to play my game (that's harder than learning some accepted rules and finding players who use them). I had written: >Maybe a complete >understanding of the game and its origins (how it branched out from the main >Mah-Jongg trunk, and demographic info about the players of that style) might >enlighten you as to why the rule exists, or maybe it wouldn't. Alan replied: It doesn't hurt to try. Usenet usage is pretty cheap. ^_^ *** Yep. Sorry if I gave the impression of trying to quash relevant discussion. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 27 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 27 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 26 Oct 1998 20:04:25 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote: >Steve Lin wrote, >But that's my point, in all these [other] situations the tiles are concealed >from >other players, so why should concealed kong be revealed to other players? >*** Because that is the rule. If you can get your table to agree to use a >different rule, go ahead. Why debate rules? You can just change them -- >provided that you can get your friends to agree. It has been changed: in Taiwanese. Personally, I feel that the Taiwanese ruling does have its grounds. The traditional rule had probably been devised in an environment where the new ruling had not been thought of. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 28 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <712im1$r...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - stevey...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Cofa Tsui wrote: > > >Well Steve, the pain might just be caused NOT ONLY from the concealed kong, if > > >you play with "dead tiles". The tile you are looking for may be in the "dead > > >tiles", even there is no Kong at all. > Alan Kwan wrote: > > There are many ways where 3 players can be holding all 4 copies of a > > tile in useful positions in their hands, and none of them is going to > > give them up. A concealed triplet is easily 3 tiles gone. (However, > > this becomes less likely under stringent minimum Faan limits.) > > Thus, I don't think the cases where the tiles one is calling for are > > conceal-kong'ed or in the dead tiles should be singled out. > But that's my point, in all these situations the tiles are concealed from > other players, so why should concealed kong be revealed to other players? It > would seem one would be better off keeping the concealed triplet than to > reveal the kong tiles to everyone. Cheers, Steve Steve, I think the reason requiring a concealed Kong (although the term itself may be confusing) to be disclosed immediately is that everyone has the right (and duty?) to examine the correctness of the move. (If someone makes a mistake with the concealed Kong should it NOT be disclosed immediately, the WHOLE game is then theoretically progressed in a wrong manner. A perfect rule set should try to avoid mistakes of this type - at least, I guess.) The benefit of keeping 3 identical tiles in the concealed hand is one thing. To display a concealed Kong AND get an extra drawing of tile is another thing. One must make a choice based on his then situations of play. -- COFA TSUI Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 29 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin wrote: > >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know what it is! Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: > In some versions of Mahjong, concealed kongs must be shown to the other > players. Steve Lin again: Thanks, Wei-Hwa, I did not know that. We normally check concealed kong after the hand is complete, just to make sure it was a true kong, and not four different winds:-). I guess some people never felt the pain of waiting for a single tile that was conceal kong'ed by another player. *** Steve, as far as I know, the NMJL game is the only one that treats a kong as something that does not mess up the tile count in the hand (the Western game's 7-pairs hands, in which a kong can be treated as two identical pairs, notwithstanding). If you have a Kong, it messes up the tile count because a Kong is regarded as a Pong with a bonus tile tacked on -- it accounts for 3 tiles from the hand. Accordingly, the player always draws a replacement tile from the back of the wall. With me so far, right? Okay, now if you have a Kong fully concealed in the hand, you could never go out -- but it's rare to have a Kong fully concealed in the hand, so you should get recognition for having something rare, right? So we have the so-called "concealed" Kong. You put it face-up on the table in front of you, letting all players see that all 4 tiles are identical, then you turn the two outer tiles face-down. This is /regarded/ as being concealed, for scoring purposes. The Classical Chinese game and the vanilla Western game calculate points for all pongs and kongs and add them to a base score, then double as mandated by the hand's other characteristics. Hopefully that clarifies the matter of how people can see what's in a "concealed" kong. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 30 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Tom, We do kongs exactly the same way in Taiwanese style, except that the concealed kong remains concealed until the end of the hand. That way no one knows what's unavailable, and there is no way to 'steal' from a concealed kong. It sounds like most of the other styles expose their "concealed" kong. Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - ACTSEARCH wrote: > Okay, now if you have a Kong fully concealed in the hand, you could never go > out -- but it's rare to have a Kong fully concealed in the hand, so you should > get recognition for having something rare, right? So we have the so-called > "concealed" Kong. You put it face-up on the table in front of you, letting all > players see that all 4 tiles are identical, then you turn the two outer tiles > face-down. This is /regarded/ as being concealed, for scoring purposes. The > Classical Chinese game and the vanilla Western game calculate points for all > pongs and kongs and add them to a base score, then double as mandated by the > hand's other characteristics. > Hopefully that clarifies the matter of how people can see what's in a > "concealed" kong. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 31 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin wrote, >We do kongs exactly the same way in Taiwanese style, except that the concealed >kong remains concealed until the end of the hand. That way no one knows >what's unavailable, and there is no way to 'steal' from a concealed kong. It >sounds like most of the other styles expose their "concealed" kong. *** Steve, I'm still a little unclear on this. Do you mean that a player calls "Kong" and places 4 tiles face-down on the table and then replaces the 4th tile from the kong box? Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 32 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Yes, you would kong exactly the same way, except that the kong tiles are not revealed to other players until someone wins or a draw. Revealing the concealed kong in the end is, of course, to prevent cheating. BTW, we make no distinctions between kong box and loose tiles. All replacement tiles come from the 'tail', whether it's for kong or flowers. Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - ACTSEARCH wrote: > *** Steve, I'm still a little unclear on this. Do you mean that a player calls > "Kong" and places 4 tiles face-down on the table and then replaces the 4th tile > from the kong box? Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 33 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <70336g$...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote: > >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know > >Steve > In some versions of Mahjong, concealed kongs must be shown to the other > players. Yes! We were playing exactly that type of version of mahjong. A "Concealed kong" is a set of four identical tiles picked from the concealed hand at one time. It must then be disclosed, before the player can draw an extra tile from the wall. -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-14 Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 34 From: Klaus Ole Kristiansen - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know >what it is! Millington's rules state that a concealed kong can be robbed to complete Thirteen Unique Wonders and for no other purpose. You must reveal the tiles to get a replacement. You then turn the two end tiles face down to show that this is a concealed kong. Klaus O K Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 35 From: Martin Rep - view profile Date: Sun, Oct 18 1998 12:00 am Email: m...@telekabel2.nl (Martin Rep) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:21:50 -0500, Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know >what it is! >Cheers, >Steve Hold it friends - this is an extremely interesting discussion. But two remarks: - from an earlier discussoion in this highly-praised group I have learned that almost everyone (*I* was the exception) had the opinion that a 'hidden' kong is never really hidden, but exposed; just one or two tiles are placed face down to show this is a kong 'in the hand'. - I had always thought that robbing a kong is only permitted when a player, who has already a pung melded, draws a tile from the wall and then completes the kong. Apparently, I was wrong. Was I? | Martin Rep | The Internet Mahjong Newspaper: | http://www.mahjong-nl.com | all the news there is to know about | The Game of a Thousand Wonders. | Site in Dutch and English | news on software, tournaments, rules | huge database; powerful search function Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 36 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 19 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <362a07ff.5170...@news.quicknet.nl>, m...@telekabel2.nl (Martin Rep) wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:21:50 -0500, Steve Lin > <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: > >This is a typo, right? How can you rob a concealed kong? You don't even know > >what it is! > >Cheers, > >Steve > Hold it friends - this is an extremely interesting discussion. But two > remarks: > - from an earlier discussoion in this highly-praised group I have > learned that almost everyone (*I* was the exception) had the opinion > that a 'hidden' kong is never really hidden, but exposed; just one or > two tiles are placed face down to show this is a kong 'in the hand'. ***Hi Martin, I think you should add Steve in your group too - Taiwanese Mahjong requires that when you make Kong by picking 4 identical tiles from within your concealed hand, the name or title of the 4 tiles be kept secret and the tiles displayed /face down/, then you may draw a replacement tile. (I learned by occasional plays. Please correct me if I am wrong.) In Cantonese Mahjong, or precisely IMJ (see NOTE below), Kongs may be classified into following types: (A) "Regular Kong" (Art. 21.3): Kong is made from a discarded Pie. Someone may claim that discarded Pie to win and you may lose the priority. There is no "robbing" with this type of Kong. (B) "Special Kongs" (Art. 22): These may be divided into two types: (B)(a) "Melded Kong": You make Kong to a *previously* disclosed set of Bango ("3 of a kind") after you have just drawn a Pie (Art. 22.1). (B)(b) "Off Kong": You make Kong with four identical Pies disclosed in one time from your hand, after you have just drawn a Pie (Art. 22.2). > - I had always thought that robbing a kong is only permitted when a > player, who has already a pung melded, draws a tile from the wall and > then completes the kong. Apparently, I was wrong. Was I? ***Because the way you play with the "Hidden Kong", it is /not possible/ to rob that Kong (whether permitted or not) because all tiles are kept concealed - That's why Steve had that question (see the beginning of this quote). In IMJ, the rule similar to "robbing" is written as follows: "Art. 23.7. A Kong providing a Pie for another player to declare Win is defined as a "Charged Kong". Charged Kong can only be claimed and winning hand declared against a Melded Kong, except that if the winning hand is the Thirteen Yuls (Art. 25.7), Charged Kong may then also be claimed and winning hand declared against an Off Kong." NOTE: There are variations in Cantonese Mahjong and the above quoted IMJ rules may not fit into all such variations. For a list of terminology used in International Mahjong Rules please visit: http://www.cofatsui.com/ymjphrase.html -- COFA TSUI Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html (8a18a.) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 37 From: Klaus Ole Kristiansen - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 19 1998 12:00 am Email: k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author m...@telekabel2.nl (Martin Rep) writes: >- I had always thought that robbing a kong is only permitted when a >player, who has already a pung melded, draws a tile from the wall and >then completes the kong. Apparently, I was wrong. Was I? According to Millington a concealed kong may be robbed to complete Thirteen Unique Wonders. This is the only exception to the rule you state. Klaus O K Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 38 From: Klaus Ole Kristiansen - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) writes: >Can one kong the last tile? I think one cannot kong because there are >no (playable) tiles in the wall left for a replacement. Yes. Replacements for kongs come from the kong box (a.k.a. the dead wall). The kong box only runs out if 16 kongs are declared (calculate the chance of that happening!), in which case no more kongs can be declared anyway, as each player already has 4. Replacements for bonuses OTOH are drawn from the live wall. Klaus O K Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 39 From: Feico Nater - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: nater...@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 15 Oct 1998 11:06:03 +0200, k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >Yes. Replacements for kongs come from the kong box (a.k.a. the dead wall). >The kong box only runs out if 16 kongs are declared (calculate the chance >of that happening!), in which case no more kongs can be declared anyway, as >each player already has 4. The game continues until there are 14 remaining tiles. You don't know in advance which tiles they will be. Whenever a tile is taken from the dead wall, one more tile from the living wall becomes a remaining tile. --- Feico Nater, Netherlands http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect --- In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 40 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Feico Nater wrote: The game continues until there are 14 remaining tiles. You don't know in advance which tiles they will be. Whenever a tile is taken from the dead wall, one more tile from the living wall becomes a remaining tile. *** So the kong box is 16 tiles, but the game plays until 14 of them are left and then stops? So if nobody makes any kongs (and flowers are replaced from the back of the live wall), the last 2 tiles in the game come from the kong box? Or have I confused things with a different set of rules? Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 41 From: Feico Nater - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: nater...@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 15 Oct 1998 20:32:37 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >*** So the kong box is 16 tiles, but the game plays until 14 of them are left >and then stops? So if nobody makes any kongs (and flowers are replaced from >the back of the live wall), the last 2 tiles in the game come from the kong >box? Or have I confused things with a different set of rules? Yes I think so. The wall can be divided in three parts. The live wall, most tiles are taken from this wall during the game. The dead wall, tiles are taken from this wall after melding kong, and perhaps too after showing a season. The remaining tiles, exactly fourteen tiles, between the dead wall and the live wall. Nobody knows where the boundaries are unless the game has ended in a draw. The game continues until 14 tiles remain. P.S. In the unlikely case that 16 kongs (and all seasons) are melded, is is no more possible to take tiles from the dead wall. In that case the boundaries are known. --- Feico Nater, Netherlands http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect --- In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 42 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Perhaps it's easier to describe this as a moving boundary between live and dead wall rather than dividing into 3 parts. If I understand Feico's description correctly, the break is originally at 14 tiles, and the dead wall will always have 14 tiles as it will be replentished every time replacement tiles are drawn. This should be how the dead wall is maintained in every style that has a dead wall, right? The confusion may be from Feico's examples of 16 kong, which will not deplete the dead tile, but merely move the boundary by 16 tiles. There's a couple of differences in Taiwanese style. A draw is declared on the fourth kong on the table, so no game can exceed that. Another difference is that we actually INCREASE the number of tiles in the dead wall by one for each kong, so that a table with two kongs would have a dead wall with 18 tiles. I don't know if any other styles changes the size of the dead wall this way. Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - ACTSEARCH) wrote: >> >*** So the kong box is 16 tiles, but the game plays until 14 of them are left > >and then stops? So if nobody makes any kongs (and flowers are replaced from > >the back of the live wall), the last 2 tiles in the game come from the kong > >box? Or have I confused things with a different set of rules? Feico Nater wrote: > Yes I think so. The wall can be divided in three parts. > The live wall, most tiles are taken from this wall during the game. > The dead wall, tiles are taken from this wall after melding kong, and > perhaps too after showing a season. > The remaining tiles, exactly fourteen tiles, between the dead wall and > the live wall. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 43 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author I had asked, >*** So the kong box is 16 tiles, but the game plays until 14 of them are left >and then stops? So if nobody makes any kongs (and flowers are replaced from >the back of the live wall), the last 2 tiles in the game come from the kong >box? Or have I confused things with a different set of rules? Feico Nater replied, Yes I think so. The wall can be divided in three parts. The live wall, most tiles are taken from this wall during the game. The dead wall, tiles are taken from this wall after melding kong, and perhaps too after showing a season. The remaining tiles, exactly fourteen tiles, between the dead wall and the live wall. *** I guess I've missed out on this fine point -- I never saw a game where there was both a 16-tile kong box and a 14-tile dead wall. Just because I never saw it doesn't mean it's not so. Just expressing my surprise. Feico continued: Nobody knows where the boundaries are unless the game has ended in a draw. The game continues until 14 tiles remain. P.S. In the unlikely case that 16 kongs (and all seasons) are melded, is is no more possible to take tiles from the dead wall. In that case the boundaries are known. *** OK, so let's say all 16 kong tiles are taken. And let's say that all 8 flowers are taken. So now is the dead wall still 14 tiles? Just curious! 53 tiles are dealt out to the players at the beginning. So the game will only use 53 tiles from the live wall in such a case: 144 - 16 - 8 - 14 - 53 = 53 tiles remaining for drawing from the wall. Tom Sloper (also known as "another poster") Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 44 From: Feico Nater - view profile Date: Sat, Oct 17 1998 12:00 am Email: nater...@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 16 Oct 1998 22:57:30 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >*** OK, so let's say all 16 kong tiles are taken. And let's say that all 8 >flowers are taken. So now is the dead wall still 14 tiles? It depends on how you define the dead wall. You could say that the dead wall is the single tile at the end of the wall, and the live wall is the single tall tile at the other end. All other tiles in the wall are inaccessible, and it doesn't matter whether you call them live or dead. But the game ends when 14 tiles remain in the wall, or another number agreed upon. Note that the order of tiles in the dead wall is not exactly backwards when compared to the live wall. Imagine that, after opening the wall, the tiles in the live wall are numbered 1 2 3 4, in the order that they are taken, until 144. In that case the dead wall is accessed in the order 143 144 141 142 139 140. --- Feico Nater, Netherlands http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect --- In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 45 From: Klaus Ole Kristiansen - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author nater...@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) writes: >On 15 Oct 1998 11:06:03 +0200, k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) >wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >>Yes. Replacements for kongs come from the kong box (a.k.a. the dead wall). >>The kong box only runs out if 16 kongs are declared (calculate the chance >>of that happening!), in which case no more kongs can be declared anyway, as >>each player already has 4. >The game continues until there are 14 remaining tiles. You don't know >in advance which tiles they will be. Whenever a tile is taken from the >dead wall, one more tile from the living wall becomes a remaining >tile. By Millington's rules the game continues until the live wall is exhausted. You know in advance which tile will be the last one drawn, should the wall be exhausted: the bottom tile next to the break. You don't know how many will be left in the kong box. That depends on how many kongs are declared. This means that you will never be unable to get a replacement for a kong. 16 tiles are reserved for this purpose, and 16 is the most you could ever need. Klaus O K Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 46 From: Perhaps a Princess... - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: "Perhaps a Princess..." <s...@eskimo.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote: > Yes. Replacements for kongs come from the kong box (a.k.a. the dead wall). > The kong box only runs out if 16 kongs are declared (calculate the chance > of that happening!), in which case no more kongs can be declared anyway, as > each player already has 4. > Replacements for bonuses OTOH are drawn from the live wall. We replace bonuses from the kong box as well. Sarah Heacock s...@eskimo.com Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 47 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Klaus O K wrote: >Replacements for kongs come from the kong box (a.k.a. the dead wall). >[snip] Replacements for bonuses OTOH are drawn from the live wall. *** I never knew that! I checked Millington and sure enough, "loose tiles" (tiles from Garden Wall/Kong Box/Dead Wall) are used only to replace the 4th tile in a Kong -- and Flower replacements come from the back end of the /live wall/. Interesting. Never noticed that such a distinction was made. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 48 From: Feico Nater - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: nater...@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 15 Oct 1998 20:20:56 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote in rec.games.mahjong: >*** I never knew that! I checked Millington and sure enough, "loose tiles" >(tiles from Garden Wall/Kong Box/Dead Wall) are used only to replace the 4th >tile in a Kong -- and Flower replacements come from the back end of the /live >wall/. Interesting. Never noticed that such a distinction was made. I think opinions differ about this. And actually, since nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be, it hardly matters. Building the wall and opening the wall is a mere ceremony, perhaps needed to prevent cheating, but unneeded among honest players, who are known not to cheat. The game would be just the same if players drew arbitrary tiles somewhere from the middle of the wall. When we play Scrabble, we usually take tiles from a bag, without looking at them, and this is perfectly fine. --- Feico Nater, Netherlands http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect --- In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 49 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 13 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Klaus, You're correct on the playing of the last tile. However, I was describing the 'next to last' tile, so there's one opportunity to replace the tile, then the game ends after a discard. The question was whether one is allow to decline the replacement tile or not discard a tile on the 'next to last' tile. My answer was no for both cases. I believe that other than scoring, the rules of play governing Taiwanese MJ and Chinese Classical are very similar. Cheers, Steve - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote: > Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: > >Patrick, > >I assume you do have at least 16 'dead' tiles, right? In any case, whenever > >you draw a tile, you must discard a tile, with no exceptions. You also must > >pick up the replacement tile. If you do play with at least 16 'dead' tiles, > >the flower replacement would turn your 'next to last' tile into the last tile, > >since that last tile becomes part of the 16 'dead' tiles. You'll still have > >to discard a tile to finish the game, though, so pick wisely. > How we play (Chinese Classical): if the last tile in the live wall is a bonus, > the hand ends immediately. I don't see what else you could do, since there > is no replacement tile available. The same thing happens if you make a kong > with the last tile in the live wall, or claim a discard for kong after the > live wall is exhausted, and the replacement is a bonus. Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 50 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 14 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <6vv346$...@ask.diku.dk>, k...@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) wrote: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - > Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> writes: > >Patrick, > >I assume you do have at least 16 'dead' tiles, right? In any case, whenever > >you draw a tile, you must discard a tile, with no exceptions. You also must > >pick up the replacement tile. If you do play with at least 16 'dead' tiles, > >the flower replacement would turn your 'next to last' tile into the last tile, > >since that last tile becomes part of the 16 'dead' tiles. You'll still have > >to discard a tile to finish the game, though, so pick wisely. > How we play (Chinese Classical): if the last tile in the live wall is a bonus, > the hand ends immediately. I don't see what else you could do, since there > is no replacement tile available. The same thing happens if you make a kong > with the last tile in the live wall, or claim a discard for kong after the > live wall is exhausted, and the replacement is a bonus. Respecting the "last tile" of a Game, I wish to share my experience: (A) In the first stage of my mahjong playing history, we kept 8 stacks (= 16 tiles) as "dead wall" ("Kong Box"). This dead wall was replenished whenever a tile was picked from it. When we came to the last tile of the "live wall", one had to pick it ("Why not!" when it was your chance to win! So in this rule, the word "had to" would be unnecessary.) but he WAS NOT TO discard it. Since one was not required to discard a tile after drawing, one may find it bothersome drawing it if he could not win anyway. So, in effect, the drawing of the last tile was actually "optional". In this stage, the "last chance" was always belong to the one who might pick it, no other player could share the luck. (Also there were rules for the discarder to pay for all when it came to the last SEVEN and last FIVE tiles left, respectively.) (B) In other stage, we were not happy with the "shortage" of the 16 tiles being kept useless. (We spent some effort to stack it up, what a wast if we cannot use it!) Therefore the "draw to the last tile" rule was evolved. During this stage, which of the rules "picking the last tile is optional" and "you must pick the last tile and must discard one tile" should be used, was still not clearly developed - the players had to make it clear everytime before the play started. (Also, the "last SEVEN" and "last FIVE" rules were gradually fading out.) (C) Today (date back to 10 years ago), a clear set of rules respecting the last tile has been developed among a wide range of players. In Cantonese Mahjong I play with, "you must pick the last tile and must discard one tile" is the rule applicable today. If this rules applies and if you pick the "second last" which is a Flower, you then pick the "last tile" as a replacement, you are bound to discard one tile (any tile from your hand, or kong one if you dare!). NOTE: A note about picking the Flowers. I don't know if any other rule set has defined it in such details, IMJ Rules defines "Replacing The Flowers" as "an integral part of the action of obtaining Pies from the Head or from the Tail." So in the case of the original question, "picking the second last as a Flower" and "picking the last as a replacement" are combined together as "picking a tile". Since your "picking" involves the last tile, you are picking the last tile. ******* For your information, following is a summary of IMJ Rules related to the "last tile". (Please note, IMJ Rules is a comprehensive set of written rules developed based on the Cantonese Mahjong.) Art. 23.4. Any player having the priority to execute an action may, by keeping silent, give up his priority and is deemed to have given up his priority if an action of less priority has been, or is about to be, completed by another player. If no action of any priority is declared, the drawing of Pie as per Art. 21.5 must be executed and shall continue up to and including the last Pie. Art. 23.9. If a player draws the last Pie as described in Art. 23.4 and cannot declare Win, he must still expose a Pie except that, in case the last draw is a Pie of the Flowers, he must disclose the Flowers only and is not required to expose any further Pie. Art. 23.10. If nobody declares Win after the last Pie being exposed or disclosed in a Game, the Game is then aborted and shall be resumed again, starting from the procedures of "Shuffling the Pies" (Art. 10.1 and Art. 36.1) without changing of Jonga, until the Game is won by a player or otherwise until the Game is completed with a result involving paying and receiving of scores. -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-14 Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html (8a14a.) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 51 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 14 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Cofa Tsui wrote: > (B) In other stage, we were not happy with the "shortage" of the 16 tiles > being kept useless. (We spent some effort to stack it up, what a wast if we > cannot use it!) Therefore the "draw to the last tile" rule was evolved. > During this stage, which of the rules "picking the last tile is optional" and > "you must pick the last tile and must discard one tile" should be used, was > still not clearly developed - the players had to make it clear everytime > before the play started. (Also, the "last SEVEN" and "last FIVE" rules were > gradually fading out.) > (C) Today (date back to 10 years ago), a clear set of rules respecting the > last tile has been developed among a wide range of players. In Cantonese > Mahjong I play with, "you must pick the last tile and must discard one tile" > is the rule applicable today. If this rules applies and if you pick the > "second last" which is a Flower, you then pick the "last tile" as a > replacement, you are bound to discard one tile (any tile from your hand, or > kong one if you dare!). Does this mean in IMJ rules, there are no dead tiles??? IMHO this changes the game drastically, since every tile will be exposed. With dead tiles, waiting for a single tile such as a red dragon, with two already discarded, is risky. Sure anyone who draws it will almost always discard it, but it could be one of the dead tiles. Without the dead tiles this is no longer an issue. I thought all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize no dead tiles? Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 52 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author In article <362519BD.21362...@email.sps.mot.com>, Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: > Cofa Tsui wrote: [snipped] > Does this mean in IMJ rules, there are no dead tiles??? IMHO this changes the > game drastically, since every tile will be exposed. With dead tiles, waiting > for a single tile such as a red dragon, with two already discarded, is risky. > Sure anyone who draws it will almost always discard it, but it could be one of > the dead tiles. Without the dead tiles this is no longer an issue. I thought > all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize > no dead tiles? > Cheers, > Steve Yes, in IMJ Rules there is no "dead tile" on the wall. What are the purposes of the "dead tiles"? Every player has at least 13 tiles concealed at the beginning of a Game. Since one does not know the concealed tiles of other three players, with respect to each player there are, at the beginning of the Game, 3 x 13 = 39 "dead tiles" out there, other than those on the wall. I think the evolution of the games simply "realizes" that the "dead tiles" are virtually existing at all time in every player's hand! The "dead tiles" on the wall are therefore not necessary, thus releasing more "playable" tiles. -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-14 Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html (8a14d.) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 53 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin had written: > all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize > no dead tiles? Cofa Tsui replied: >Yes, in IMJ Rules there is no "dead tile" on the wall. What are the purposes of the "dead tiles"? >Every player has at least 13 tiles concealed at the beginning of a Game. Since one does not know the concealed tiles of other three players, with respect to each player there are, at the beginning of the Game, 3 x 13 = 39 "dead tiles" out there, other than those on the wall. >I think the evolution of the games simply "realizes" that the "dead tiles" are virtually existing at all time in every player's hand! The "dead tiles" on the wall are therefore not necessary, thus releasing more "playable" tiles. *** Perhaps Steve's choice of the term "dead tile" has sparked a discussion on an unrelated topic. Steve clearly /means/ to refer to what is normally known as "loose tiles" -- in the West, we use the term "dead tile" to refer to a discard that is no longer available for play. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 54 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - > Cofa Tsui replied: > >Yes, in IMJ Rules there is no "dead tile" on the wall. > What are the purposes of the "dead tiles"? > >Every player has at least 13 tiles concealed at the beginning of a Game. > Since one does not know the concealed tiles of other three players, with > respect to each player there are, at the beginning of the Game, 3 x 13 = 39 > "dead tiles" out there, other than those on the wall. > >I think the evolution of the games simply "realizes" that the "dead tiles" are > virtually existing at all time in every player's hand! The "dead tiles" on the > wall are therefore not necessary, thus releasing more "playable" tiles. ACTSEARCH wrote: > *** Perhaps Steve's choice of the term "dead tile" has sparked a discussion on > an unrelated topic. Steve clearly /means/ to refer to what is normally known > as "loose tiles" -- in the West, we use the term "dead tile" to refer to a > discard that is no longer available for play. I believe both Cofa and I are referring to the same thing, the 'loose tiles' taken from the 'tail', or 'dead wall'. My counter-argument is that there is a big difference between random loose tiles and tiles kept by other players. For example, one can usually observe a player going for 'pure color' and then arrange to wait for a tile that he knows that particular player would discard. The same goes with waiting for a wind or dragon tile, assuming all players have melded sets (or if "13 Ghosts" is not recognized), and two of the four tiles have already been discarded. In this case, anyone who picks up the fourth tile (you have the third) would have to discard it, or 'land safely' and give up his chance of winning. With the dead wall there's a good chance that fourth tile may never show up. We are talking about removing 16/(39+16), or 29% of the tile unavailable to a particular player. I think that's a significant statistical difference. It looks like only the NMJL and Western styles evolved into a zero "dead wall" rule. Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 55 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: "Cofa Tsui" <c...@cofatsui.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin ¼¶¼g©ó¤å³¹ <3626752C.27BC2...@email.sps.mot.com>... >> Cofa Tsui replied: >> >Yes, in IMJ Rules there is no "dead tile" on the wall. >> What are the purposes of the "dead tiles"? >ACTSEARCH wrote: >> *** Perhaps Steve's choice of the term "dead tile" has sparked a discussion on >> an unrelated topic. Steve clearly /means/ to refer to what is normally known >> as "loose tiles" -- in the West, we use the term "dead tile" to refer to a >> discard that is no longer available for play. >I believe both Cofa and I are referring to the same thing, the 'loose tiles' >taken from the 'tail', or 'dead wall'. **Correct. My counter-argument is that there is a >big difference between random loose tiles and tiles kept by other players. >For example, one can usually observe a player going for 'pure color' and then >arrange to wait for a tile that he knows that particular player would discard. > The same goes with waiting for a wind or dragon tile, assuming all players >have melded sets (or if "13 Ghosts" is not recognized), and two of the four >tiles have already been discarded. In this case, anyone who picks up the >fourth tile (you have the third) would have to discard it, or 'land safely' >and give up his chance of winning. With the dead wall there's a good chance >that fourth tile may never show up. We are talking about removing 16/(39+16), >or 29% of the tile unavailable to a particular player. I think that's a >significant statistical difference. **You do have your point. However, as each Game progresses the strategies of players tend to change too. There are chances some players may keep all useless tiles in hand just for "safety" purposes. In that case many tiles will not show up too untill at the end of the Game. **I don't know why people tended to eliminate the "loose tiles" or "kong box" in that stage of my history of mahjong playing. In that stage, when negotiated at the beginning of each play, some players still felt more comfortable to keep the "loose tiles" but some players insisted without it. **I tend to support "zero dead wall" because if the "dead wall" serves as secret of some tiles, that secret could exist in /other/ players' hands. Besides, if all (or most) players are working on hands of very high rank, the use of all tiles would push the excitement to the highest possible level. It looks like only the NMJL and Western >styles evolved into a zero "dead wall" rule. >Cheers, >Steve **For your information, IMJ Rules has eliminated the "dead wall", too. -- COFA TSUI 1998-10-15 Enquire about your investment opportunity with International Mahjong (trademark registered) URL: http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html Email: c...@cofatsui.com ********************************************* Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 56 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 27 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:26:22 -0500, Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote: > It looks like only the NMJL and Western >styles evolved into a zero "dead wall" rule. This is because NMJL qualifies fully as a game with "stringent faan limits", or more precisely a game where one can go out only with a few defined patterns, rather than with most regular hands. In such games, if a dead wall is maintained, drawn games would occur too often, I guess. It seems to me that "Western" is a variant of NMJL, and thus based on it. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 57 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Tues, Oct 27 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Steve Lin wrote: > It looks like only the NMJL and Western >styles evolved into a zero "dead wall" rule. Alan Kwan wrote: This is because NMJL qualifies fully as a game with "stringent faan limits", or more precisely a game where one can go out only with a few defined patterns, rather than with most regular hands. In such games, if a dead wall is maintained, drawn games would occur too often, I guess. *** Correct. The NMJL game has a set of about 50 hands, one of which must be made before the player can go Maj. The set of hands changes every year! But I digress. Even though we use the entire wall (all the way down to zero), we still get a wall game quite often. In the NMJL game each hand is considered a "game" unto itself -- I'd say we probably get a wall game 20% of the time, or even more often than that (maybe 25% of the time) in my weekly group. Alan continued: It seems to me that "Western" is a variant of NMJL, and thus based on it. *** Incorrect. The vanilla Western game and the NMJL game both evolved along separate lines from Babcock's 1922 rules. The vanilla Western game is much more similar to the Classical Chinese game (with an extended list of special hands added) than it is to the NMJL game (the NMJL game is truly unique among Mah-Jongg games). They both start with a "Charleston" -- and jokers may optionally be used in the vanilla Western game -- but there the similarity ends. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 58 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On 27 Oct 1998 23:59:12 GMT, actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote: >Alan continued: >It seems to me that "Western" is a variant of NMJL, and thus based on >it. >*** Incorrect. The vanilla Western game and the NMJL game both evolved along >separate lines from Babcock's 1922 rules. I see. So "draw to the last tile" is in Babcock's? That would explain why the rule is in Western. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 59 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Wed, Oct 28 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Alan Kwan asked, I see. So "draw to the last tile" is in Babcock's? That would explain why the rule is in Western. *** No. Babcock's game is roughly similar to the Chinese Classical game, but with a number of variations. Babcock's rules do not describe the Charleston (which evolved later into all Western games), and Babcock's rule is that the last 14 tiles on the wall remain untouched. After Babcock introduced the game with his imprint on the rules, other importers jumped in and imported (or manufactured) tiles and wrote their own rules. America was inundated with a bewildering variety of rules, which eventually resulted in the game losing much of its popularity. Out of the ashes of the dead popularity of Mah-Jongg, the NMJL and vanilla Western both rose like non-identical twin phoenixes, and they coexist to this day. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 60 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Thurs, Oct 15 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Date: 10/14/98 2:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time Steve Lin wrote, I thought all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize no dead tiles? Steve, NMJL -- Game plays through the entire wall (0 tiles left at the end). Wright-Patterson -- Flower wall is 14 tiles. HK style (per Perlmen & Chan) -- Dead wall is 14 tiles. Japanese (both Classical and Modern) -- 14 tiles. Western (per S&E) -- Play to 0 tiles. Classical Chinese (Millington) -- 16 tiles. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 61 From: Wei-Hwa Huang - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes: >Steve Lin wrote, >I thought >all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize >no dead tiles? >Steve, >NMJL -- Game plays through the entire wall (0 tiles left at the end). >Wright-Patterson -- Flower wall is 14 tiles. >HK style (per Perlmen & Chan) -- Dead wall is 14 tiles. >Japanese (both Classical and Modern) -- 14 tiles. >Western (per S&E) -- Play to 0 tiles. >Classical Chinese (Millington) -- 16 tiles. In a sense, Japanese has only 13 dead tiles, since one tile is visible to all players. What's more, it maintains the number 13, as when there is a kong, a tile is removed from the 13, one is turned face up, and two tiles are taken from the live section to keep the number at 13. In another sense, Japanese has 14, 15, 16 ... dead tiles since those face-up tiles can never be drawn. -- Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity." Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 62 From: Steve Lin - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: Steve Lin <r14...@email.sps.mot.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: > In a sense, Japanese has only 13 dead tiles, since one tile is visible to > all players. What's more, it maintains the number 13, as when there is a > kong, a tile is removed from the 13, one is turned face up, and two tiles > are taken from the live section to keep the number at 13. So if there are two kongs on the table, there would be 3 tiles face up, plus 13 concealed dead tiles, for a total of 16 tiles, right? That's exactly how we handle the dead wall for kongs in Taiwanese style, except that we keep the tiles face down. Cheers, Steve Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 63 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Fri, Oct 16 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: >In a sense, Japanese has only 13 dead tiles, since one tile is visible to >all players. What's more, it maintains the number 13, as when there is a >kong, a tile is removed from the 13, one is turned face up, and two tiles >are taken from the live section to keep the number at 13. *** Not so. Modern Japanese players do not refresh the dead wall from the back end of the live wall (at least, not the players I play with in Los Angeles' Little Tokyo). The dead wall totals 14 tiles (and it is never added to beyond the original 14 tiles). You are right, the face-up one(s) cannot be counted, but in fact, even more than that cannot be counted! A posting in another branch of this thread states that the Classical Chinese kong box is 16 tiles, for the purpose of refreshing 4 kongs for 4 players. Well, in Japanese the maximum is 4 kongs for the entire table. So the last 4 tiles in the Japanese dead wall are for kong replacements. The last 10 tiles are only used as Dora indicators (Dora, Ura Dora, Kan Dora, Kan Ura Dora, etc.) and are otherwise dead. If the game were to happen to have 4 kongs, the 4th kan dora indicator would be turned face-upwards, and now all the entire dead wall has been used. There is no need to refresh the dead wall, because it cannot have any use beyond that! Tom Sloper (aka "Another poster") Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 64 From: Wei-Hwa Huang - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 19 1998 12:00 am Email: whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes: >Steve Lin wrote, >I thought >all the different styles designate 16 dead tiles. What other styles recognize >no dead tiles? >Steve, >NMJL -- Game plays through the entire wall (0 tiles left at the end). >Wright-Patterson -- Flower wall is 14 tiles. >HK style (per Perlmen & Chan) -- Dead wall is 14 tiles. >Japanese (both Classical and Modern) -- 14 tiles. >Western (per S&E) -- Play to 0 tiles. >Classical Chinese (Millington) -- 16 tiles. In a sense, Japanese has only 13 dead tiles, since one tile is visible to all players. What's more, it maintains the number 13, as when there is a kong, a tile is removed from the 13, one is turned face up, and two tiles are taken from the live section to keep the number at 13. In another sense, Japanese has 14, 15, 16 ... dead tiles since those face-up tiles can never be drawn. -- Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity." Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 65 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 19 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Wei-Hwa Huang wrote: In a sense, Japanese has only 13 dead tiles, since one tile is visible to all players. What's more, it maintains the number 13, as when there is a kong, a tile is removed from the 13, one is turned face up, and two tiles are taken from the live section to keep the number at 13. *** This is not correct. The Japanese dead wall contains 14 tiles (yes, one is face-up, but so what). Only 4 kongs can be made from those 14 tiles. The remaining 10 tiles are all used for indicators for Dora and Kan Dora and such. The Japanese dead wall is never maintained and refreshed (no tiles are ever added to the dead wall) -- it just starts with 14 and can go as low as 10 (who cares if some are face-up or not). Wei-Hwa also wrote: In another sense, Japanese has 14, 15, 16 ... dead tiles since those face-up tiles can never be drawn. *** I do not understand the point being made here. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 66 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:15:32 GMT, Cofa Tsui <c...@cofatsui.com> wrote: >(B) In other stage, we were not happy with the "shortage" of the 16 tiles >being kept useless. (We spent some effort to stack it up, what a wast if we >cannot use it!) Therefore the "draw to the last tile" rule was evolved. IMO, a more precise reason for the coming about of the "draw to the last tile" rule is the large number of drawn games caused by the sringent minimum faan limit. With the stringent minimum faan limit, the basic mechanics of the game is changed, so that drawn games become a frequent occurence. Players are annoyed by too many drawn games, so they draw to the last tile in hopes of reducing the frequency. IMO, this is just another case of 'a bad rule bringing about another bad rule'. This rule doesn't have much to do with the rule concerning the treatment of the last drawn tile in the game. The latter probably get varied because it has not been well conveyed during propagation. When the standard rule has not been properly conveyed, the practice of having to discard after drawing the last tile becomes the 'logical' ruling adopted by the players. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 67 From: J. R. Fitch - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: "J. R. Fitch" <jrfi...@ninedragons.com> Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Alan Kwan wrote: > IMO, a more precise reason for the coming about of the "draw to the > last tile" rule is the large number of drawn games caused by the > sringent minimum faan limit. Exactly. In Hong Kong, games with a 0 or 1 faan minimum are played to the last 16 tiles. If the Minimum Hand is 2 faan, then they usually agree to play to the very last tile. -- J. R. Fitch Nine Dragons Software 351 Ulloa Street San Francisco, California 94127 415.664.3474 v. 415.564.3161 f. www.ninedragons.com jrfi...@ninedragons.com Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 68 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author J.R. wrote: Exactly. In Hong Kong, games with a 0 or 1 faan minimum are played to the last 16 tiles. If the Minimum Hand is 2 faan, then they usually agree to play to the very last tile. *** Hmm. First time I heard of that one. Anybody know if a similar rule is adopted in other forms of MJ as well? Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 69 From: ACTSEARCH - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 26 1998 12:00 am Email: actsea...@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Alan Kwan wrote, This rule doesn't have much to do with the rule concerning the treatment of the last drawn tile in the game. The latter probably get varied because it has not been well conveyed during propagation. When the standard rule has not been properly conveyed, the practice of having to discard after drawing the last tile becomes the 'logical' ruling adopted by the players. *** I play the NMJL game once a week. This game is completely different from all other forms of MJ, but even in the NMJL game there can be reluctance to discard a tile after drawing the last tile from the wall. Happened the other day. Several of us were waiting to go out, and had managed to preserve the hand's waiting condition right up to the very end. Last player drew the last tile, looked around at all the hungry wolves around the table, and reluctantly asked, "do I have to discard something?" So it's interesting, but this optional rule (not discarding after drawing the final tile) may even be adopted by some NMJL players. Tom Sloper, Activision Senior Producer, Shanghai tslo...@activision.com (weekdays) Actsea...@aol.com (weekends) Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo: http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/ Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== 70 From: Alan Kwan - view profile Date: Mon, Oct 12 1998 12:00 am Email: t...@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) Groups: rec.games.mahjong Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author Both Mr. Gaan's book and another source tells me that the original rule in Classical is that the player who picks the last tile does not discard. If that indeed is true, it would not be hard to see why we've got several different modern variations on this rule. On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:58:45 -0700, Patrick Ho <p...@email.sjsu.edu> wrote: >Hi group. Me again. Whenever my group plays, we play till where we draw >to the very last tile, with the exception of having the option of not >drawing the very last tile. One would choose to do this if their hand >was not ready anyway and don't want to risk the chance of tossing out a >tile for someone to win with. So, if I pick the second to last tile and >it happens to be a flower, I am supposed to pick a replacement tile from >the end, now do I have to toss that tile out? I guess another >possibility would have been to not pick the replacement tile, too. "Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / t...@notme.netvigator.com http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews) DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com (please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address) Reply ==============================END OF MESSAGE===== |
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