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[History of MAHJONG - Front page] History of MAHJONG - Newsgroup archives 2006-11-30
The following archived messages may be searched from the mahjong newsgroup (rec.games.mahjong) with the following text strings: 'Earliest Chinese reference to "ma que"'.
[Below is a reproduction of messages posted in the mahjong newsgroup (rec.games.mahjong) -
Initial message: 2006-11-30 / Collection date: 2007-01-01 / Archive file: maiarchives205k]
1 From: cymbalum@free.fr - view profile
Date: Thurs, Nov 30 2006 1:35 am
Email: "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr>
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In 1903 Li Boyuan (aka Li Baojai, 1867-1906) founded the magazine
"Xiuxiang Xiaoshuo" ("Illustrated Stories") in Shanghai, and started
publishing his serialised novel "Guanchang xianxing ji" ("Officialdom
unmasked") which draws a ferocious satire of Chinese bureaucracy. In
1904 the series was published in book form (abridged English
translation: "Officialdom unmasked", transl. by T.L. Yang, Hong Kong,
2001).
These Chinese bureaucrats play mahjong often!
(excerpts can be seen on Google Book Search at:
http://books.google.com/books?q=Officialdom+unmasked&hl=fr&as_brr=0
open the link to get the 1st cover, then go to the right and scroll
down until the "Search in this book" box, just type "mahjong" and go:
you'll be amazed)
Of course I had doubts: translators take many liberties with game
names! How many times have I read 'whist' in a Russian novel, while it
was 'vint' in the original version... But a German book gives clear
evidence that Li Boyuan wrote 'ma que' ('ma qiao'). In her study "Das
Kuan-ch'ang hsien-hsing chi : ein Beispiel für den politischen Roman
der ausgehenden Ch'ing-Zeit" (The Guanchang Xianxing ji: an example of
a political novel of late Qing times), Bern - Frankfurt/M., 1974, p.
97, Christel Ruh points out many examples of Shanghai speech in Li
Boyuan's prose. One of these is the expression "cha ma que" (gambling
at mahjong) of which she remarks it is typical of the Shanghai dialect
(Wuyu) and would not have been used in the North.
So "cha ma que" in 1903 is the earliest Chinese reference to MJ sofar
found in a literary work.
Readers of Xu Ke (but also of Laufer) will find this helpful.
Thank you for your attention. :-)
Thierry
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
2 From: mstanw...@aol.com - view profile
Date: Thurs, Nov 30 2006 2:38 am
Email: mstanw...@aol.com
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cymba...@free.fr wrote:
> Of course I had doubts: translators take many liberties with game
> names! How many times have I read 'whist' in a Russian novel, while it
> was 'vint' in the original version... But a German book gives clear
> evidence that Li Boyuan wrote 'ma que' ('ma qiao'). In her study "Das
> Kuan-ch'ang hsien-hsing chi : ein Beispiel für den politischen Roman
> der ausgehenden Ch'ing-Zeit" (The Guanchang Xianxing ji: an example of
> a political novel of late Qing times), Bern - Frankfurt/M., 1974, p.
> 97, Christel Ruh points out many examples of Shanghai speech in Li
> Boyuan's prose. One of these is the expression "cha ma que" (gambling
> at mahjong) of which she remarks it is typical of the Shanghai dialect
> (Wuyu) and would not have been used in the North.
> So "cha ma que" in 1903 is the earliest Chinese reference to MJ sofar
> found in a literary work.
Hello Thierry. Wow!! Another excellent find! It is interesting that the
name refers to the gambling aspect of the game. I wondered whether this
suggested that the game was pretty widespread as a gambling game. And
how would this compare and contrast with Millington's claimed lofty and
idealistic game that he claimed was in existence sometime between 1910
and 1920?
A pretty stark juxtaposition I would have thought?
Cheers
Michael
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
3 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile
Date: Fri, Dec 1 2006 11:03 pm
Email: "Cofa Tsui" <cofat...@hotmail.com>
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One of these is the expression "cha ma que" (gambling
> > at mahjong)
Can anyone show me or point me to the Chinese writing of "cha ma que"?
Would that be the same or similar to "da ma cheuk" (Cantonese) where
"da" (hit) means "play" in English.
I suspect that "cha" is not necessarily linked to the word "gambling".
-------
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
4 From: cymbalum@free.fr - view profile
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2006 9:19 am
Email: "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr>
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Cofa Tsui a écrit :
> Can anyone show me or point me to the Chinese writing of "cha ma que"?
> Would that be the same or similar to "da ma cheuk" (Cantonese) where
> "da" (hit) means "play" in English.
> I suspect that "cha" is not necessarily linked to the word "gambling".
Hello Cofa,
I was in England and could not reply to your message earlier.
The Chinese word 'cha4' is made of Radical no. 29 + 1 stroke.
(Unicode: U+53C9, Big5: A465)
and is normally translated as[1] [v] interlace fingers; cross arms [2]
[v] thrust; pierce; stab [3] [n] fork; prong...
However, a rare meaning is "to play (at mahjong) for money".
This meaning is to be found in large dictionaries only, e.g. in the
recent Grand Dictionnaire Ricci de la langue chinoise, Paris, 2002,
probably the biggest Chinese-western language dictionary (7 volumes).
Here is what they say under 'ch'a' (they use the Wade-Giles
romanization):
ch'a4
1.a. Croiser... 2. fourche... (...)
5. (Jeux) a. Jouer (au machiang).
(in English: 1.a. to cross... 2. fork... (...)
5. (Games) a. To play (at majiang).
(That's for the general meaning of the character. Then they proceed to
explain expressions that use 'cha'.)
ch'a ma ch'üeh (Jeux - loc.) Jouer au machiang ou mahjong (pour de
l'argent).
ch'a ma ch'üeh p'ai (Jeux - loc.) Jouer au machiang ou mahjong (pour
de l'argent).
("(Games - local) To play majiang or mahjong (for money)."
A little further they gloss the phrase "ch'a se" thus:
"(old) A term that means a sort of heads-and-tails game, which
consisted in throwing six coins on the ground..."
So I think 'cha4' had an old meaning dealing with some sort of gambling
and that 'cha ma que' (ch'a ma ch'üeh) could as well be translated -
as all translators do, it seems - as "playing mahjong for money". Isn't
it gambling?
Cheers,
Thierry
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
5 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2006 8:52 pm
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
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Hello Cofa,
I have found the "guan chang xian xing ji" book which was written in
old Chinese and was published from 1903 to 1905 at a newspaper. I
picked a paragraph from it below:
祥蹋饒泬苤梯赽泬湮陔請腔珨跺嘔矓ㄛ靡趼請港炰ㄛ岆拫塗嶺票拫湮腔導蝠﹝拫塗嶺票肮泬苤梯赽踏毞岆菴珨棒眈頗ㄛ艘獗泬苤梯赽肮港炰猁疑ㄛ陑奻覂妗勛棚﹝場泬苤梯赽遜祥橇腕ㄛ綴懂拫湮腔螺伎膝膝腔豜爵楷ㄛ爵曹啞﹝坻岆狟ㄛ衱岆屨屾堤旯ㄛ岆衄萸腔﹝忒爵湖腔岆鎊齪ㄛ陑奻砑腔岆坻媼﹝涴珨萵齪岆坻酕蚽ㄛ珨跺祥隱朸ㄛ楷堤珨跺笢瑞ㄛ菁模鼴賸狟懂﹝奻模躲忒楷賸珨桲啞啣ㄛ勤醱珩鼴堤﹝奀泬苤梯赽淏釴勤醱ㄛ港炰俉婓坻輒爵杸坻楷齪ㄛ珨頗泬苤梯赽楷涴桲齪ㄛ珨頗衱佽楷饒桲齪﹝泬苤梯赽泭坻佽趕ㄛ楷堤懂珨桲匐勀ㄛ菁模珨怉憩堤﹝豝牉艘奀ㄛ埻懂岆控瑞做親ㄛ媼侐勀珨減ㄛ桲勀珨桲匐勀脹桲﹝踏港炰楷堤匐勀ㄛ菁模杅賸杅ㄩ笢瑞侐萵ㄛ控瑞做親匐萵ㄛ桲勀侐萵ㄛ匐勀裂芛祥呾ㄛ蟀覂睿狟懂坋萵芛ㄛ眒衄媼坋鞠萵ㄛ珨楹拻坋媼ㄛ謗楹珨啃錨侐ㄛ勀趼珨伎ㄛ楹媼啃錨匐﹝拫塗嶺票酕蚽ㄛ湖腔岆拻啃輸栥珨菁腔繫媼殤ㄛ蚽模等怀涴珨萵齪眒冪媼啃嗣輸﹝拫塗嶺票怀給怀腕ㄛ硐秪涴桲齪岆港炰楷腔ㄛ婬樓眕棚砩ㄛ祥蚕腕"躑植陑奻ㄛ填砃筐晚汜"ㄛ嗨奀鏽齪厘珨芢ㄛ梀綻賸螺ㄛ佽耋ㄩ"扂蠅湖齪侐跺ㄛ踏給嗣堤珨跺懂賸ㄐ艘賸謗模腔齪ㄛ楷跤模睿ㄛ埻懂斕蠅岆揹籵疑賸懂酕扂珨跺腔ㄐ"港炰疆煦梁耋ㄩ"扂衱祥窀腕狟模脹腔岆匐勀﹝斕蚽模嘐猁怀ㄛ泬湮珩猁顯覂斕怀﹝"拫塗嶺票耋ㄩ"赻猁怀ㄐ斕褫窀腕斕蠅泬湮祥岆蚽ㄛ怀腔軞猁掀扂屾虳ˋ"港炰耋ㄩ"珨跺橾玼祥岆酕珨跺嘔矓ㄛ珨跺嘔矓祥岆酕珨跺橾玼ㄛ朼繫扂腔泬湮ㄐ斕蠅絊弇湮泭泭ㄛ涴趕疑虷祥疑虷ㄐ"
From the above paragraph, I could find they were playing a CC-like
mahjong and Red Dragon, White Dragon had exsited at the moment.
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
6 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2006 9:33 pm
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
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Oh, it messed. The Chinese book could be find
at:http://www.inncn.com/book/gd/l/libaojia/gcxxj/index.html
It seems the game was called "ma que (pai)" then. And I find the Red
Dragon was called Centre Wind.
The winning hand exsiting in the Chapter 31 was: RRR, NNN 234C 777C 8C
+ 8C, the West seat made the losing discard to the South seat. They
counted as:
meled RRR, 4pts
concealed NNN, 8pts
concealed 777C, 4pts
winning, 10pts
3 doubles(I don't know which were the 3 doubles) to 208pts.
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
7 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Thurs, Dec 7 2006 10:12 pm
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
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"ithinc 写道:
"
> Oh, it messed. The Chinese book could be find
> at:http://www.inncn.com/book/gd/l/libaojia/gcxxj/index.html
> It seems the game was called "ma que (pai)" then. And I find the Red
> Dragon was called Centre Wind.
> The winning hand exsiting in the Chapter 31 was: RRR, NNN 234C 777C 8C
> + 8C, the West seat made the losing discard to the South seat. They
> counted as:
> meled RRR, 4pts
> concealed NNN, 8pts
> concealed 777C, 4pts
> winning, 10pts
> 3 doubles(I don't know which were the 3 doubles) to 208pts.
Sorry, I made a mistake. The winner should be the North seat. So the 3
doubles were:
Red Dragon 1dbl
Seat Wind 1dbl
Mixed Characters 1dbl
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
8 From: Cofa Tsui - view profile
Date: Thurs, Dec 7 2006 11:46 pm
Email: "Cofa Tsui" <cofat...@hotmail.com>
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- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
cymba...@free.fr wrote:
> Cofa Tsui a écrit :
> > Can anyone show me or point me to the Chinese writing of "cha ma que"?
> > Would that be the same or similar to "da ma cheuk" (Cantonese) where
> > "da" (hit) means "play" in English.
> > I suspect that "cha" is not necessarily linked to the word "gambling".
> Hello Cofa,
> I was in England and could not reply to your message earlier.
> The Chinese word 'cha4' is made of Radical no. 29 + 1 stroke.
> (Unicode: U+53C9, Big5: A465)
> and is normally translated as[1] [v] interlace fingers; cross arms [2]
> [v] thrust; pierce; stab [3] [n] fork; prong...
Would that be (thanks to Ithinc)...
"Cha ma que"("叉麻雀") maybe is a word in "wu yu".
That makes sense why I didn't know, if this is "hu yu" (胡语); as
initially I thought it was "cuo ma que" (搓麻雀).
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> However, a rare meaning is "to play (at mahjong) for money".
> This meaning is to be found in large dictionaries only, e.g. in the
> recent Grand Dictionnaire Ricci de la langue chinoise, Paris, 2002,
> probably the biggest Chinese-western language dictionary (7 volumes).
> Here is what they say under 'ch'a' (they use the Wade-Giles
> romanization):
> ch'a4
> 1.a. Croiser... 2. fourche... (...)
> 5. (Jeux) a. Jouer (au machiang).
> (in English: 1.a. to cross... 2. fork... (...)
> 5. (Games) a. To play (at majiang).
> (That's for the general meaning of the character. Then they proceed to
> explain expressions that use 'cha'.)
> ch'a ma ch'üeh (Jeux - loc.) Jouer au machiang ou mahjong (pour de
> l'argent).
> ch'a ma ch'üeh p'ai (Jeux - loc.) Jouer au machiang ou mahjong (pour
> de l'argent).
> ("(Games - local) To play majiang or mahjong (for money)."
> A little further they gloss the phrase "ch'a se" thus:
> "(old) A term that means a sort of heads-and-tails game, which
> consisted in throwing six coins on the ground..."
> So I think 'cha4' had an old meaning dealing with some sort of gambling
> and that 'cha ma que' (ch'a ma ch'üeh) could as well be translated -
> as all translators do, it seems - as "playing mahjong for money". Isn't
> it gambling?
I have no idea about the "old meaning," or if this is in "hu yu."
Thanks for the info anyway.
----------------
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
9 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Fri, Dec 8 2006 12:42 am
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
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"Cofa Tsui 写道:
"
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> cymba...@free.fr wrote:
> > Cofa Tsui a écrit :
> > > Can anyone show me or point me to the Chinese writing of "cha ma que"?
> > > Would that be the same or similar to "da ma cheuk" (Cantonese) where
> > > "da" (hit) means "play" in English.
> > > I suspect that "cha" is not necessarily linked to the word "gambling".
> > Hello Cofa,
> > I was in England and could not reply to your message earlier.
> > The Chinese word 'cha4' is made of Radical no. 29 + 1 stroke.
> > (Unicode: U+53C9, Big5: A465)
> > and is normally translated as[1] [v] interlace fingers; cross arms [2]
> > [v] thrust; pierce; stab [3] [n] fork; prong...
> Would that be (thanks to Ithinc)...
> "Cha ma que"("叉麻雀") maybe is a word in "wu yu".
> That makes sense why I didn't know, if this is "hu yu" (胡语); as
> initially I thought it was "cuo ma que" (搓麻雀).
Oh no, what I mentioned was "wu yu"(吴语, suzhou hua/shanghai
hua/etc). Most Probably "cha ma que"(叉麻雀) was the local
pronunciation of "cuo ma que"(搓麻雀) in Suzhou/Shanghai/etc. It is
also possible that it was just a pronunciation and there was no Chinese
characters corresponding to it, but when an article was written, a
Chinese character must be lent.
ithinc
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
10 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2006 11:14 pm
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
Groups: rec.games.mahjong
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"Cofa Tsui 写道:
"
> One of these is the expression "cha ma que" (gambling
> > > at mahjong)
> Can anyone show me or point me to the Chinese writing of "cha ma que"?
> Would that be the same or similar to "da ma cheuk" (Cantonese) where
> "da" (hit) means "play" in English.
> I suspect that "cha" is not necessarily linked to the word "gambling".
> -------
> Cofa Tsui
> www.iMahjong.com
"Cha ma que"("叉麻雀") maybe is a word in "wu yu". It's similar to
playing mahjong. Generally in Chinese, when mentioning playing mahjong,
it means gambling by playing mahjong. That's why CMCR was made in 1998,
in which Competition Mahjong was introduced to differentiate from the
Gambling Mahjong.
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
11 From: ithinc - view profile
Date: Wed, Dec 6 2006 9:52 pm
Email: "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com>
Groups: rec.games.mahjong
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"mstanw...@aol.com 写道:
"
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> cymba...@free.fr wrote:
> > Of course I had doubts: translators take many liberties with game
> > names! How many times have I read 'whist' in a Russian novel, while it
> > was 'vint' in the original version... But a German book gives clear
> > evidence that Li Boyuan wrote 'ma que' ('ma qiao'). In her study "Das
> > Kuan-ch'ang hsien-hsing chi : ein Beispiel für den politischen Roman
> > der ausgehenden Ch'ing-Zeit" (The Guanchang Xianxing ji: an example of
> > a political novel of late Qing times), Bern - Frankfurt/M., 1974, p.
> > 97, Christel Ruh points out many examples of Shanghai speech in Li
> > Boyuan's prose. One of these is the expression "cha ma que" (gambling
> > at mahjong) of which she remarks it is typical of the Shanghai dialect
> > (Wuyu) and would not have been used in the North.
> > So "cha ma que" in 1903 is the earliest Chinese reference to MJ sofar
> > found in a literary work.
> Hello Thierry. Wow!! Another excellent find! It is interesting that the
> name refers to the gambling aspect of the game. I wondered whether this
> suggested that the game was pretty widespread as a gambling game. And
> how would this compare and contrast with Millington's claimed lofty and
> idealistic game that he claimed was in existence sometime between 1910
> and 1920?
The mahjong was borned for gambling. All the symbols on the tiles are
related to money.
Reply
==============================END OF MESSAGE=====
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