Part 1 (downloaded 2009-01-05)
http://www.sloperama.com/cctheory/about.html

The CC Theory

A lengthy debate on the mahjong newsgroup (news:rec.games.mahjong) raged on for years (most heatedly between 2000 and 2002), the topic being whether CC or HKOS was the older form of mahjong.

• Alan Kwan held that CC (Chinese Classical) was the original rule set and that HKOS evolved from it.
• Cofa Tsui argued that it was just as likely that CC evolved from HKOS.[[A]]
• I argued that the evidence was overwhelmingly in Alan's favor, at least that HKOS was a younger variant that probably evolved from CC (if not that CC was the original rule set).[[B]]

The "debate" raged on for a very long time, with a lot of side arguments confusing the matter and with not a few insults being thrown around. So in an attempt to re-civilize the mahjong newsgroup, I created a web version of the arguments, neater and shorter, to both move the debate off the newsgroup and to provide a forum in which the argument could be debated in a more formalized manner.

In 2006, new information emerged about pre-1920s mahjong rules, and non-CC 1920s rules. And, in the four years since I moved the debate from the newsgroup to the web, I've learned a lot about the early development of mahjong, largely thanks to scholars like Michael Stanwick, who wrote a series of articles in The Playing-Card (the journal of the International Playing Card Society), and Thierry Depaulis, who was interviewed in a most enlightening TV show about playing cards ("Secrets of the Playing Card") that was shown here in the U.S. on the History Channel. It was now apparent that CC was not the original rule set of mahjong. And some new information about some minor CC-like variants extant in the 1920s hinted at a possibility that HKOS could (just possibly) have evolved from those, rather than directly from CC.

So at this point, looking back on this silly old debate, I didn't feel like it was necessary to keep the old debate page alive anymore. Especially since part of what Alan and I had claimed was no longer supportable (that CC was "the original" variant, which later discoveries, especially Stanwick's, clearly disproved). So now I have replaced the old debate page with this page you're looking at.

(If you really want to see that old debate page, it's still here.)

Part 2 (downloaded 2009-01-05)
http://www.sloperama.com/cctheory/oldtheory.html

(Note: The table of links related to "The CC Theory" at the top of the source page is omitted here.)

THE DEBATE - A CONDENSED SYNOPSIS

A greatly shortened digest of the CC Theory debate

NOTE: All the original newsgroup discussions can still be read on Google. Go to http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.mahjong/ and type the subject line into the search box.

Date: Dec. 9, 2000
Subject: Why does kong have precedence over chow
This is when the discussion began. Dan Lau asked why, in HKOS, a claim for a discard to make a pung should take precedence over a claim for the same discard to make a chow. He specifically requested a historical point of view. Alan Kwan's answer used Chinese Classical to explain the origin of the thinking. Alan said HKOS had evolved out of CC.
Cofa Tsui retorted that it was just as likely that CC evolved out of HKOS.[[C]]
I provided a long list of evidence that indicated Alan's theory was more likely.
Cofa fought us on all evidence, saying "evidence isn't proof." We agreed that evidence isn't proof, but we pointed out that this fact didn't make the evidence worthless. These arguments bounced right off Cofa.[[D]]

Date: Oct. 2, 2001
Subject: Nine tiles warning
The debate flared up again when Martin Rep raised a question about the 9-pieces warning in HKOS. Again, Alan used CC (specifically, a Millington rule) to explain the logic or origin of the penalty on Oct. 9. Again Cofa questioned what CC had to do with an HKOS rule, and again Alan and I tried to explain.[[E]]

Sidebar: On the challenge of debating anything with Cofa
Some people enjoy debating, just for the enjoyment of arguing. I'm not one of those. I used to work for a guy for whom every conversation was a contest. Perhaps Cofa is like that former boss of mine.
Cofa wore down his opposition by twisting what they said, by arguing them down on their choice of words in a statement, and at times by introducing some arguments that didn't even make sense to me.
A frequent tactic he would use would be to insist that the rules described by one author couldn't be remotely related to the rules described by another author - as though the two authors didn't describe the same variant. He was still using this tactic 6 years later.
He often hinted or said outright that writings by non-Chinese were suspect or invalid.
He decried the use of the word "rulebook" for any books other than his own.
Cofa fought us on all definitions - he has even insisted that the word "mahjong" (by whatever spelling) cannot be defined.
He frequently objected that the term "Chinese Classical" (CC) wasn't used in the 1920s; we explained it's just a term we use to refer to 1920s mahjong, but he fought against it.[[F]] Six years later, he still acted as though he didn't know what CC was -

"I used to think CC = Millington's rules in 1977, which are not the same as those in the 1920s.... [still, to say that] 'CC = the 1920s rules' could be ambiquous." [Dec. 11, 2006 - "A Millington critique(fairly long)"][[G]]

I found it very frustrating to debate with him - we couldn't even agree on terminology, so every time Alan or I said something, Cofa could simply challenge us on a term we used (sidetracking the conversation and thus stop all discussion of the main topic). He seemed to conveniently forget or misunderstand most things we said, or twist our words to mean something other than what we'd been trying to convey. This was still a tactic 6 years later. Julian Bradfield (present throughout the entire history of all this) chided Cofa for this in 2006:

Cofa: "Accordingly, in other word, when foreigners went to China in/around 1920s
and started writing books about *the game* (or, what name should i use here?
let's just call it "mahjong" for now), and all of a sudden mahjong began to
exist! Because prior to 1920s, there was obivously no documentation of the
game." [Nov. 21, 2006 - "A Millington critique(fairly long)"]
Julian: "Stop being so wilfully stupid." [Nov. 22, 2006 - "A Millington critique(fairly long)"][[H]]

Cofa never bothered to obtain copies of any of the 1920s books, even though they are readily available on eBay and Amazon. Twice I offered help. Early in the debate I informed him of a book available on eBay. And in 2006 I even offered to sell him a couple of duplicates from my collection. He replied:

Cofa: "Anyway, thanks for your offer, Tom. By the way, if a copy of Babcock's
"little red book" in good condition is available I would like to know ^_^ [Dec. 8, 2006 - "A Millington critique(fairly long)"]
Tom: "I don't know if you'd be interested in a later hardcover edition, or if only the 1st softcover printing is of interest to you, or if a Parker Brothers printing would be satisfactory for you." [Dec. 9, 2006]
Cofa: "I would be interested in only the 1st softcover print." [Dec. 11, 2006][[I]]

A later post by Thierry Depaulis [Dec. 11, 2006 - "Analysis of rules - A game of the year 1903"] mentioned something Babcock wrote, which Cofa later noted as significant. Cofa complained that I'd been been guilty of omitting this information. But this thing Thierry mentioned was not in Babcock's 1st edition (only in the hardcover). Cofa's reasoning as to which Babcock edition he would regard as worthy of having was woefully uninformed (as usual). And it would behoove him to increase his library if he's going to debate a thing.
In contrast to Cofa's method of debating, Alan's gentlemanly, exacting, cogent, and patient style earned my respect and admiration. I may not have agreed 100% with everything Alan said, but I liked him. Still, sometimes I had to let him fight Cofa without me.
Sorry for the digression. It was necessary to illuminate what occurred next...

Date: Oct. 9, 2001
Subject: Nine tiles warning
Cofa said he didn't understand a particular thing Millington had said.
I decided to reply. But by this time I had become extremely weary of trying to explain things to Cofa, given the way he usually seemingly didn't understand explanations, or fought the terms used in them. This weariness is evident throughout my Oct. 9, 2001 post. In my reply to Cofa's not seeing the point of the particular part of the Millington quote, I said:

"I see a difference, but I don't have the energy to continue trying to clarify."

This prompted Cofa to insult me:

"Don't worry, Tom. Everyone does have the energy to write just about anything, but pointing out and accepting the right and wrong is about one's ability and courage." (10/11/2001)[[J]]

Date: Nov. 6, 2001
Subject: The Ongoing Debate (long)
It seemed likely that the debate would be sparked into life yet again due to a response I'd written to a post about proto-mahjong (aka "ur-mahjong") by someone named Kevin. Having grown weary of the way it had gone before, I wrote a post trying to civilize the discussion and undo the tactics Cofa used to derail anyone else's line of thought.
On Nov. 8, I said (possibly not for the first time), that I wasn't going to argue for Alan's assertion that CC was the original rule set (proto-mahjong). I was more interested in making it clear that CC predated HKOS (meaning it was not only possible, but also likely, that HKOS evolved from CC, which is why CC rules illuminate HKOS rules).[[K]]
Nevertheless, when I created the CC Theory Web page, I enlisted Alan's aid in drafting the page. This aid necessitated incorporating Alan's arguments in full. I started this work in November of 2001 and it was online in April of 2002. During that period, I had a chance to go to Hong Kong, where Alan lives, so I met up with Alan in person. Photo at http://www.sloperama.com/hk/hkmj.htm.

Date: April, 2002
Address: http://www.sloperama.com/cctheory/cctheory.htm
Moving the debate to the Web in 2002 (see the pink and green table above) did make for a much less contentious newsgroup. I was able to put the whole sorry episode behind me for a few years. Over time I lost touch with Alan (he stopped writing on the newsgroup). I made a personal vow to never respond to Cofa again.

Date: Oct. 26, 2006
Subject: Millington's 3 types of kong
It was unavoidable, though, that the topic would flare up again eventually. This time the spark was Julian Bradfield, expressing dissatisfaction with something Millington said.

Date: Nov. 15, 2006
Subject: A Millington critique(fairly long)
Julian's post prompted Michael Stanwick to write. One of the points of Michael's thesis in this post was that Millington referred to several variants in the 1920s but without providing any details, names of sources, or anything. So we started talking about 1920s variants - it was inevitable that this would lead again to the question of whether CC or HKOS predated the other since CC was the prevalent variant at the time, and it'd be impossible to keep that fact behind the curtain throughout the discussion.
I reexamined my vow to never respond to Cofa in light of then current events. I saw a parallel behind my vow and the deplorable refusal of Pres. George W. Bush to talk to North Korea or Iran - I didn't want to think of myself as being like the hated Bush in any way. So I responded yet again to Cofa when the time came.
In discussing variants, I proposed that a "taxonomy" of mahjong variants would need to be created to enable discussion in detail, classifying variants and families and classes. Cofa said that anytime anybody played using a different table rule, a different variant was created. I said table rules would have to be subtypes under a "genus" (variant) in order to make the taxonomy manageable. Cofa said we should name all variants according to the author - and that when an author described more than one variant, those have to be listed separately too. Essentially, in a typical time-honored tactic of his, he argued the idea of taxonomy to death.[[L]]

Date: Nov. 28, 2006
Subject: Earliest Chinese reference to "ma que"
Then the CC Theory really started to fray at the edges. This post by Thierry Depaulis revealed details of a pre-1920s variant.

Date: Dec. 8, 2006
Subject: Analysis of rules - A game of the year 1903
In the course of this, Cofa threw words from my own Web page at me. I hadn't looked at the CC Theory Web page in a long time, and when I did look, I was horrified to see that Alan's claim that CC was the original rule set was still there. And I discovered some definitions that had grown stale over the years (as I'd learned more about the origins of the game thanks to Michael Stanwick's articles in The Playing Card). So on Dec. 11, 2006 I went into the CC Theory Web page and modified some definitions and deleted Alan's claim that CC was the original rule set. By Dec. 13 it was clear to me that the 1903 rules described by Thierry, and some 1915 rules described by Mauger, and even alternate rules mentioned by Babcock in his hardcover book, while not disproving the hypothesis that CC led to HKOS, did hint at a possible parallel development.
I totally rewrote the front page of the Web page.
On Dec. 14, the next morning, Cofa exulted:[[M]]

"As a result of the recent findings, the original claims of the 'History of Mahjong' discussion are now proved to be correct....
Accordingly, the conclusion of the discussion/debate is what I've expected. As to Tom's last two sentences, 'Also clearly, CC was extremely well documented as long ago as the 1920s. And to date, the earliest documentation we have yet found about HKOS goes back no farther than 1979 (Perlmen and Chan's first printing, see FAQ 3).' - With 'CC' changed to 'CC-like', I certainly agree to what he says; but this shall have nothing to do with the discussion/debate, I assume."

Conclusion:
It was perhaps unwise of me to go so far as to support Alan's thesis that CC was the original rule set. I should have stayed with CC being the "parent" variant of HKOS (as I'd said on Nov. 8, 2001). But especially, I should have given up trying to convince Cofa to agree with anything.[[N]] His opinions are not important to me.
But for the record, despite Cofa's boast above, not all of his original claims have been proven to be correct. Evidence still supports the theory that HKOS did not yet exist yet in the 1920s. So it is certainly not likely that CC evolved from HKOS, as Cofa once suggested.[[O]] A recent analysis of the pre-1920s and 1920s rules (which I worked on together with Thierry Depaulis via email and can be seen at http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/analysis.html) indicates that it is indeed likely that HKOS evolved later (possibly directly from CC, or possibly from a parallel variant contemporary with CC).
Alan's initial answers to Dan Lau and Martin Rep, that the HKOS rules they asked about had their origins in CC, are not disproved by the new information. Regardless, it was silly of me to continue working so hard to try to convince one person, and I regret having let myself get carried away with it as far as I did.

"Never argue with an idiot. Onlookers won't be able to tell the difference." - Unknown[[P]]

Quote 3 (downloaded 2009-01-05)
http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq11f.html

(Note: Only the following portion of the source page is quoted here, for clarification purposes. The link to the original source page as dated is provided above.)

Click the tree to see a larger picture.

Note: since the time the Family Tree illustration was created, some new variants have been discovered. Those are not yet included in the illustration.

And importantly, some newly discovered documents (December, 2006) reveal that there was a pre-1920s game, with some differences from the variant we have been calling Chinese Classical. The diagram above doesn't reflect either "proto-mahjong" (the unknown earliest form of the game) or this newly discovered "pre-1920s" game (the diagram does need to be redrawn). But you can see a comparison of some of those early twentieth century forms at www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/analysis.html. Hong Kong Old Style mahjong is also listed in that comparison, mainly to mollify one vocal member of the mahjong newsgroup who long held that HKOS was a significant early ancestor of today's variants.[[Q]] The next chapter examines the debate on this topic, for those who care to delve that deeply.

[[A]],[[C]],[[O]],[[Q]]

I would say that "Cofa Tsui argued that it was just as likely that CC evolved from HKOS" as quoted on the Sloperama site is a false statement! I have never said that "CC evolved from HKOS" in such a definite manner. My claims about HKOS related to CC are very clear, it has been recorded in the IMJ Archives, in "Topic 205" (the original of the History of MAHJONG series), under items (1) and (2) in the beginning portion of the document.

In "Topic 205C" (Dec 8, 2000), under Message #9, I said: 'In my opinion, it is yet to determine whether HKOS is a simplification of Chinese Classical, or "Chinese Classical" a complicated form of "HKOS". ^_^' It clearly represented my position that any reference suggesting any definite statement of history between the two forms of mahjong was yet to be determined.

[[B]]

To view the initial claims of the three key players of the debate in its beginning stage, please visit "Topic 205C" (Dec 2000) and look for the following messages:
#8 from Alan
#9 from Cofa
#11 from Tom

[[D]]

"These arguments bounced right off Cofa" is somewhat dramatic and exaggerated. The debate actually continued and had lasted for many years; and throughout the years my initial position remained unchanged! (Please refer to [[A]] for my initial position, which is very different than what is stated on the Sloperama site - as of the writing of this page.)

[[E]]

Here, I was not arguing the connection between the variant of rules, I was questioning the definite statement that "HKOS is a descendent of CC." You can view the debate in its original form from "Topic 205F".
Messages:
#8 from Alan
#10 from Cofa
#11 from Tom

[[F]],[[G]],[[H]],[[L]],[[M]]

My position about CC being claimed to also cover forms in the 1920s: Because of historical issues, the newer form (CC, or Millington's "Classical Mahjongg" in 1977) cannot claim to be equivalent to any older, although similar, form in the 1920s. In addition to this, books of the 1920s also suggest that various forms of mahjong did co-exist in the 1920s.

I had further explained my such position in detail in messages #31 and #37 of "Topic 205d(2)".

[[L]],[[M]]: similar to the above

[[I]]

My interest in collecting mahjong books has been very minimal. My interest in the debate has always been trying to point out someone's incomplete statements involving history of mahjong that were presented in a definite, absolute manner. See also "[[P]]"

For obvious reason, I'd prefer having the 1st edition of Babcock's book, rather than anything else.

[[J]]

- It's a general statement, not against any specific person and clearly is not an intended attack.
- It's about some poster who has raised an issue and provided argument of his/her own, but chooses to keep silence when others have provided a better argument, leaving the discussion at "loose end" or unfinished. (The one who provides the last argument will never know if his submission is acceptable or agreeable to the one who has first raised the issue.)

[[K]]

For a record of the forum messages with the subject The Ongoing Debate (long), please visit "Topic 205G". In message #14 of the topic...
I had said that such debate was "undebatable";
OR otherwise, Tom's suggestion is making his topic "undebatable";
OR otherwise, Tom's topic does not require any discussion from my part.

For Tom's "CC predated HKOS (meaning it was not only possible, but also likely, that HKOS evolved from CC, which is why CC rules illuminate HKOS rules)", My position is clear:
1) I have no problem with "CC predated HKOS" (see also [[A]]);
2) In "...but also likely, that HKOS evolved from CC" where "likely" is used, I have no problem with such statement either.

[[N]],[[O]]

-Congrats that Tom finally adopts to the change of his mind!
- As to "So it is certainly not likely that CC evolved from HKOS, as Cofa once suggested", I have to make it clear again that I had never argued or claimed that HKOS predated CC. NEVER, EVER! As I have pointed out in [[A]], it is a false statement about my position on the relation between HKOS and CC.
- With "But especially, I should have given up trying to convince Cofa to agree with anything." - I will comment if it is specified about what else Tom had tried to convince me to agree with, other than "CC is the origin of mj, all variants evolved from CC"!

[[P]]

"Never argue with an idiot. Onlookers won't be able to tell the difference." - Unknown

My opinion: If a person can and has the ability to tell the difference, he would have every duty to point out the difference when someone keeps making definite statements that are incomplete or incompetent, even with the risk that he could be called an idiot!

[[Q]]

Re: "Hong Kong Old Style mahjong is also listed in that comparison, mainly to mollify one vocal member of the mahjong newsgroup who long held that HKOS was a significant early ancestor of today's variants."

With the latter portion of the above statement, namely, "...one vocal member of the mahjong newsgroup who long held that HKOS was a significant early ancestor of today's variants", I really suspect if such a "vocal member who held such a position" did ever exist in the mahjong newsgroup! I wonder if the author of this statement could provide evidence to support this statement!